WW: Everybody, welcome to Unlimited Hangout. I'm your
host, Whitney Webb. So as many of you know, or maybe you don't,
unless you follow me on Twitter or get the Unlimited Hangout
newsletter, but I've been in the hospital here in Chile, with my
one and a half year old, since the beginning of June, we're
actually still in the hospital, I have a friend watching him
right now. So I could get away for a while to record something.
Because obviously, I've had a lot on my mind over the past two
plus months, you know, it's been a while, and honestly, you know,
after trying to entertain a small child in a confined space
for a long time, doing something like this makes me feel kind of
kind of normal again, which is, which is definitely nice for me,
in a sense. So I don't want to talk too much about my my son's
medical situation, and I've sort of explained it in other places,
you know, before to an extent, but thankfully, there is a light
at the end of the tunnel, a little bit of uncertainty about
the timeline, but we're hoping to be home. Finally, sometime
next month. So long story short, this whole experience has has
changed me, you know, in a lot of ways, it's made me rethink a
lot about how I approach and I guess, balance different aspects
of my life, including work, of course. And, you know, pretty
much everything. Um, I've thought a lot about healing,
obviously. And, you know, that's part of what I want to talk
about today. For the first, you know, couple of weeks, I guess,
several weeks, maybe of our stay in the hospital, my son was in a
really, really bad way. And he's definitely out of danger.
Definitely not the kind he was in for sure. But when he was,
you know, I spent a lot of time, you know, sitting next to I'm
looking at him, he was in an induced coma, he was on life
support, you know, so I was thinking about him and his life,
the circumstances that brought him into my life, what could
happen, you know, if he doesn't make it home, or, you know, all
sorts of things, and I think, you know, that's pretty normal
for any parent, in that situation. And, you know,
obviously, for a lot of that time, I was obviously pretty
emotional. I mean, it's hard not to get emotional, even just
talking about it again, but, you know, it was really the first
time since I've had kids that I had a lot of time to myself, to
just sit and think about things and reflect on life, my life,
what kind of mother I've been, what kind of person I've been,
and how I can be better for my kids, so that when we finally do
get to go home, things are the best they can possibly be, you
know, I've heard from a lot of other parents too, that have had
their children in the ICU or the, the niku, you know, that it
really just totally changes, you know, how you were the kind of
parent you, you want to be, because it's just such a
emotional time, for lack of a better term for it. And, you
know, even though my son still has a few physical things, you
know, to heal from obviously, I realized that I have a lot to
heal from to, you know, not necessarily physically, and I
think, you know, if we're honest with ourselves, as adults,
right, you know, it's, it's pretty much true of us all, you
know, life is not necessarily kind. And, you know, sometimes,
you know, we distract ourselves with work, or we're busy with
kids, or, you know, all sorts of stuff comes up. And sometimes
we, we forget about, you know, those parts of ourselves until
we're sort of forced by the circumstances of life, to, you
know, look at them and stare them in the face, right. So, for
a long time, and pretty much ever since I've been writing and
had any sort of platform, but really, even before then, I've
avoided talking about personal life as much as possible,
including why I do the work that I do and why I care about it.
And I actually get asked this a lot in interviews, you know, how
did I become who I am? Why do I do what I do? And if you've
noticed, I try and give short and honestly pretty evasive
answers. And, you know, an example of that was actually
pretty recent. I I was asked that exact question at the
Bitcoin magazine conference in May. And, you know, he told me
he was Mark Goodwin, he was the host of that panel told me he
was going to ask me that right before we went on stage. And I
was like, Oh, I actually don't know if I want to talk about
that. So I'm going to try and come up with something else say,
because, you know, I, you know, I mean, part of the reason I
don't like talking about it is because I'd rather that the
interviews and public appearances I do be about the
work and the research and not about me. And part of that is to
avoid, you know, the shoot the messenger tactic when people
want to discredit something. But I also, you know, there are
questions that are hard for me to answer because I don't like
talking about my past, or where I come from, and what made me
who I am, I don't really think it's very pleasant, I think it's
actually a rather unpleasant story. So in the first part of
this podcast, I won't be talking much necessarily about that
maybe more towards the ends. But what I do want to talk about and
focus on today is how a lot of the tactics used by people who
are abusive can be very similar to what the elites are doing to
us right now. And how they're trying to engineer society in a
particular direction, to make us easier to control. And I think
in some way, try and make us more like them. And I think in
examining those parallels, it sort of helps elucidate why they
do it, and what we can do about it. So, but now, I'd like to
introduce the person who's joining me today to talk about
these issues. So of course, it's a regular guest of this podcast,
Ryan Christianna, the last American Vagabond one of my
favorite people and independent media to talk to you, how are
you doing today, Ryan?
RC: I'm good. Thanks for having me on Whitney. I just wanted to
say off the gate, that I think it's, you know, it's
commendable, first of all, but to take take something that is a
hard moment in life and turn it into something or try to make it
something that's worth, you know, that you learn something
from is something that people have a hard time with, you know,
there's always been these unsettling moments in our lives,
that, that you can truly, profoundly change in a positive
way. If you, you know, if you try to dissect it and learn from
it, you know, as much as they're terrible. And so that's
something that this is, you know, like, either understand,
we're going to talk about today and how we can, you know, see,
in regard to the government and personal relationships, as well.
So I think it's a good time for this conversation.
WW: Well, I think, you know, on a broader scale, like on a
societal level, a lot of us have to heal from stuff in order to
really like, you know, not to sound cheesy, but the sort of
heal our world, you know, and make sure the next generation
isn't really messed up, because there's a lot of obviously
really messed up going on, there's a lot of forces that are
trying to specifically target kids with all sorts of stuff.
So, you know, definitely crazy times to live in. And, you know,
I think part of the change that has to come needs to, you know,
be internal change for for people to an extent,
RC: you can't change until you appeal first. Right?
WW: Right. Totally. So there's a lot of ways we can start off
this conversation. But I guess, you know, all started off
talking a little bit about, you know, I guess, my past. So, I
grew up in a household with a parent who is a very extreme and
very, very sadistic narcissist, experience, you know, my adult
life, you know, I decided, as soon as I can legally leave my
home, and 18, that I didn't want to spend my whole adult life
suffering from that. So I spent most of my 20s trying to sort
that out as much as I possibly could. On my own, because I
know, you know, if you just bury it down and don't deal with it,
it's something that destroys you over time, especially if you
know, you have anger and all this other stuff, it can eat
away at you, and cause a lot of problems. But, you know, the
more I've reflected on that particular type of abuser, and
there's a lot of resources for that type of abuse. It you know,
if you look for it online and stuff, I just realized there's a
lot of parallels, you know, with the powers that be the elites,
whatever you want to call them. And that a lot of the tactics
that narcissists abuse, or use when they abuse their targets
and how the powers that be abused us there's a lot of
similarities. And I think part of that is because at the end of
the day, what narcissists are ultimately seeking to do is to
keep their victims and of course that, you know, they don't do
this to everybody, they strategically pick certain
people to do this to, or, you know, if you're the child of
one, you can't go anywhere, so you're your easy prey. But
essentially, what they aim to do is to keep you basically in this
toxic system, and train you to essentially serve them and their
needs and neglect their own and control you. And of course, you
know, we talked about a lot with the elites that it's really all
about control for them at the end of the day and they're
trying to control have us in ways that are just extreme and
obsessive. And of course, they're doing that so that we
continuously serve them and don't have a mind of our own.
So, you know, maybe that's one similarity. But the one thing
that, you know, you, you and I sort of talked a little bit
about before recording that, I think is a really important
thing to look into here is the idea of narcissism. And I guess
what I would call the false self, right? So what do I mean
by that? So narcissists, tend to sort of have a split
personality, in a sense, but you generally, you know, only see
one side of that self, when it's projected publicly, right? So
narcissists will have a superior grandiose self, and that's what
I call the false self, because they're trying to project what
they want people to see about them. And then they also have an
inferior, devalued sell for, you know, I guess, the real self,
for lack of a better term. And they sort of vacillate between
these and trying to manage the feelings of inferiority that
bubble up from that devalued self is, you know, responsible
for a lot of behaviors that narcissism show and a lot of,
you know, behavior that they use, that's abusive, you know,
in terms of the people that they're trying to keep, you
know, providing them with, you know, what, what is termed often
narcissistic supply or sort of this. These feelings and these
feelings of power over people and all of that, that sort of
keep narcissists, more or less stable in there. Instability, I
guess, for lack of a better term. So. So the term narcissist
rate comes from the Greek myth of narcissist. And essentially,
narcissist was a guy that fell in love with his reflection in a
lake or something like that, a pool of water, and he died
waiting for the response of his reflection. He like hungering
for that response. But I think it's more fair to say that the
way it is with Narcissus is that it you know, they, they hunger
for how they're reflected in the eyes of other people. So a lot
of times, at least in my experience, they have this
obsession with how other people view them. And they want to be
viewed a very specific way but a lot of times that's very, very
different than how they act privately like with their family
at home or with the you know, in the relationship they are where
they're, you know, abusing someone.
RC: It's so interesting, the more you look into this and I
love the overlap is so fascinating. Think about of the
way that these what I've we've we've all continued to see a
sociopathic borderlines psychopathic people in power, is
that it's inherently insecure, which is so interestingly,
contradictory. seems counterintuitive, right? That
these people are insecure with who they are, but it's
inherently selfish, right? They're ultimately trying to
create this perception of themselves through the way other
people see them. And that's so incredibly relevant to the way
the government acts with us today, we gaslighting and, you
know, making us feel lesser than, and I just find that this
I think this is such an important topic because like I
agree with you, I think that's exactly what's happening to us
today.
WW: Yeah, well, if you think about the elites, right? Um,
well, here's an example not to pick on him, right? But Elon
Musk, right? Elon Musk has really, really, really wants a
certain chunk of people to think he's super cool. He's a, he's
obviously invested a lot of time and building up that persona.
But it's very insecure, right? Because people that have, for
example, there's a bunch of accounts, for famous people that
post like where their private jets go and stuff, it's publicly
accessible information, he freaked out that a guy was doing
that, about him. And there's other examples of, I think,
Musk, and also have different celebrities, you know, someone
insults them or something, and they just, like, freak out about
it, and have like many meltdowns, and try and like, you
know, destroy the person that took them down a peg. But again,
you know, there's a lot of a lot of these billionaires spend a
lot of money and trying to create this version of
themselves, that if you look into the person really isn't
real, like Bill Gates, for example, right? Trying to
project what a great philanthropist and altruistic
guy he is, you know, when if you actually look into Bill Gates
and his whole deal with philanthropy, it has nothing to
do with altruism at all. Right now. They're trying to project a
certain version of themselves and mask the real self. So
they're like masters at this whole false self thing? For
sure.
RC: Do you think that it is both that they're trying to make
other people see them as better than they are? As well as the
fact is that they're trying to make others worse than they are
like, in the sense of where the government kind of Yeah, under
their thumb?
WW: Well, I think that's pretty clear. If you consider you know,
what I think is a pretty easy to document tendency among the
elite and the powers that be to view the little people as you
know, scum, really. And that's where a lot of like the whole
eugenicist mindset comes from.
RC: Right supremacist? Yeah. Well, the
WW: idea, they feel like they're so smart, and they're, you know,
so good at planning whatever that they can choose who lives
and who dies on the extreme end of eugenic, you know, eugenics
and then, you know, elsewhere on the eugenic spectrum, you know,
they get to choose who gets to reproduce, and who does not get
to reproduce, you know, they think they have the right to
make those decisions for other people, because those other
people don't know what's best for them. So that's inherently
looking at, you know, everyone else is lower than them. And I
think this is sort of a taught behavior in these elite circles,
especially people that are part of these, like, generational
moneyed families. I think it's, you know, part of the
upbringing.
RC: You could also point out that the social media, like you
mentioned, with Elon Musk, the more that they engage in the
feedback loop, we've talked about a lot of whether way
social media works, that that becomes almost like a self
fulfilling prophecy by continuing to engage with that
system. And, you know, and just just like it's a continuous,
it's a feedback loop. You know, you're wondering if that's good.
WW: Oh, well, I was just gonna say that I think social media is
all about the false self. I don't know if you wanted to
finish the point. You were saying before I go off into
that.
RC: No, please. Yeah, this is this is where I think he gets
really interesting. And the idea of how social media plays into
it.
WW: Right. So you know, if there's this need to publicly,
you know, like, we've talked about narcissists have this need
to publicly project a specific persona, out into the public so
that people view them a certain way. And they're obsessed with
how people view them, but it's not necessarily how they really
are. So the internet, I think, has not just taken that tendency
and narcissist to extreme levels, but it's also made
people into narcissist who may not necessarily have been
narcissist otherwise,
RC: right? That's fascinating. And I like like, not just people
that were already borderline sociopaths, but like just
average children, teens that get pulled into this world, like, it
makes me think of whether we want to get into specific
craters or not, but very specific, large craters out
there that are very openly like negative against certain people.
And yeah, that's, that's, that's very sad to think about. It's
happening to a lot of unwitting children and teens and adults.
WW: Yeah, well, I mean, you know, if you look at the studies
on like teams, and social media, it makes kids really depressed.
And it makes them feel bad about themselves. And paradoxically,
perhaps, most of those girls are trying to post pictures that are
the most flattering, they spend a long taking many pictures and
picking one out of like, you know, 50, they might take,
right, or, you know, adjusting it with filters and all this
stuff. So they're trying to make themselves look as good as
possible, but they end up feeling awful. So they're
projecting something that's not really them, and projecting that
falseness out there and interact, having this like sort
of, you know, fake interaction, that's all about this dopamine
feedback loops and creating addictions in like in the brain.
To want to be in that is making people miserable. And so it's
basically creating this false self where everything's great,
right? And then privately, it's turning these people into, you
know, feeling like their real Self is inferior. And that's
exactly what, you know, is the deal with narcissist. And, you
know, obviously, narcissists existed before social media. But
my point here is that, you know, like I said, a second ago, this
is really making it extremely common, I think, among, you
know, society where social media and the internet is ubiquitous
at this point.
RC: Yeah. Well, what you kind of mentioned before we went live,
the overlap, like bringing it back to the government point is
that, you know, it wouldn't surprise me. If this entire,
like, let's just take the concept of Facebook, which I
think we're all kind of aware now was a not a military kind of
project originally, that was made to literally turn people
into narcissists and or sociopaths. And for the very
purpose, you were saying that it sort of creates this situation
where then one, they're easier to rule and manipulate, but it
makes them feel way better about who they are.
WW: Yeah, well, you know, you're basically creating people that
feel awful about how they really are and but they become addicted
to the system. And they like can't live without the quote
unquote, approval, the likes that they're receiving from
people that are reacting to the quote unquote, false self.
RC: mean, it's like every abusive relationship, but like
you were mentioned in the beginning, right? I mean, it's
the same kind of feedback cycle where you create you as long as
you make someone feel like they're not good enough to be
there, then you can you can control what their outcome their
actions and that's what's happening to everybody.
WW: Yeah, but I think there's a there's a couple different
levels here too. So like when someone is I mean, of course,
narcissism like anything like autism or any personality
disorder, not that autism is a personality disorder, but you
know, there's this spectrum of any sort of condition, you know,
tends to fall on a spectrum. And I think narcissism is like that,
too. So you'll have like people that are like really extreme
pathological narcissists, a lot of them tend to be like
sociopathic, even sometimes they tend to be psychopaths, you
know. And that's why I think maybe you have so many in
positions of power to because there's studies right about how
psychopaths and sociopaths tend to, like rise really high up the
corporate ladder, they tend to be the top politicians, and all
of this stuff, too. And so, you know, people on that end of the
spectrum are easy to control in the sense that you can give them
stuff that over inflates their, the self that they publicly
project out there, and the stuff that they want. And a lot of
times what those guys want is to dominate other people, they want
control, or they want everyone to think they're the best thing
in the entire world. Celebrity. Right. Right. So they're easy to
control in, in that sense. And then there's people, you know,
on different parts of the spectrum. But ultimately, you
know, if you're creating, you know, a generation, you know, of
teenagers that have had social media, since they were really
small. And at the end, their brains haven't fully developed,
and they're using it right, and they become wired to these
feedback loops. I think the way of manipulating them is a little
bit different than say, the people on the far end of that,
of that narcissist spectrum that are, you know, too far gone to
really rehabilitate, in a sense.
RC: Well, I the first parallel for me, and this may be just
because this is where I've been researching. But you know, you
can obviously overlap with this things like the transgender
movement, and how these platforms are being used to
create that same dynamic where these went these young girls,
primarily young girls, today, something like 70 something
percent, even though that was barely exist, it was mostly
younger boys before that are all suddenly filled with the idea
that they're not right, that they're that they're not worth
what they are currently is not good enough. Right? And that
WW: was their goal. Yeah, no, I was just gonna say I was gonna
agree that they're authoring you know, the biological self and
look into this other self that they're being told, if you
invest your time and energy and this self, it will fix all of
your problems.
RC: Right, right. And then the inherent underlying point that,
you know, first, obviously, you're not good enough the way
you are. But if you do this, and you change yourself for the
image that we think you should be, then you will achieve
happiness. But then what we're seeing is the exact opposite,
just like the media platforms that they're desperately
unhappy, and then Mote you know, many people speaking out about
that today. And then that, but that's in and of itself becomes
another cycle. You know, and for me, it's hard not to see this as
something that's being done to people, not just a byproduct of
malfeasance, you know, like, we're saying it's got this all
this is just one big, abusive relationship?
WW: Well, definitely, I think, you know, the way power stays in
power is by being, you know, abusive, and a lot of that
abusive is, you know, there's a lot of different ways that abuse
manifests, right? So there's like, the violence of the state,
the state creates chaos, right? And abusers do that, too.
They'll create chaos, and then you'll be like, I'll do anything
to stop this chaos, this crazy explosive anger, just to make it
go away, whatever you want, you know, and then also at the, you
know, the elites also do that, you know, will only stop.
Exactly, well, ascension is is a great example. But you know,
bombing all sorts of, you know, tools of the state or, you know,
state violence and other or false flags, you know, will only
stop this if you give in to what we are asking for. Right?
RC: The parallel. I mean, it really is exactly the same thing
when you think about it.
WW: Yeah, but, you know, it's crazy, like, in my case, I, it's
probably because I grew up in a household that was messed up,
but like, as an adult, like, I had a hard time being able to
recognize people doing this, probably because I've had low
self esteem my whole life, you know, and so I just, I was
really good at seeing how governments and the state and
the powers that be abuse us, but in my own personal life, it took
me way longer than it should have.
RC: Why do you think that is? Why do you think see, especially
from someone like you that is very clearly able to pick out
the things that many others can't see? Right? So what why do
you think it took you so long to recognize that in your most
immediate relationship, um,
WW: because I think a lot of it has to do with like, when when I
was a kid, I was made to feel guilty everything. A lot of a
lot of narcissistic households, when they have kids, they put
kids in certain positions and you can read about this. You
know, anywhere they talk about narcissistic parents, you know,
they'll have one kid that's the quote unquote, golden child is
the term for it, and the other kid is the scapegoat that
everything gets blamed on and so I was the scapegoat. I was the
oldest kid and my daughter was the my daughter My sister was
the golden child. And it's not like she had a great time and
she didn't turn out to be a narcissist, but she also had a
lot of, you know, trauma from Growing up, I think it was just
different for me. So I was used to being blamed for everything,
including stuff I didn't do, and just kind of constantly devalued
throughout my, you know, entire childhood and adolescence, so I
was just kind of used to being, you know, treated poorly. And,
you know, when it happened to me, later on as an adult, I was
just, you know, it felt familiar. And, like, you know,
we got weird, I guess. But when you grew up in an environment
like that, you know, it's really, it was really easy to
guilt trip me. I think that was, but you know, I was made to feel
bad like that all the time as a kid, and I guess it just was
sort of wired in my brain differently than it is from
people that don't have that experience.
RC: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, we're all raised to, you
know, revere the parents, and even the same thing with the
government, you know, we're supposed to trust authority, you
know, you take direction as a kid in school. And so it's hard
for a child, especially to stand back and reflect on that not
being the norm, you know, yeah, totally. I was gonna say a good
example, in like, a relationship example is something that we're
everyone's familiar with, there's books written about it,
it's called negging. Right. And that's a basic tactic of just
making somebody else feel unsettled. lesser than so you
disarm them to a degree to where you can essentially manipulate
them to the point of sexuality. And it's terrible when you think
about it. But ultimately, that's a narcissistic tactic. Same
thing we're talking about, really, but from a, you know,
for family level, or from a government
WW: level. Yeah, good point. So another parallel that I think is
kind of interesting is that, you know, the the government the
powers that be the elite, they'll publicly project empathy
when their actions show anything, but and this is kind
of interesting, too, because narcissists don't experience
empathy, like normal people do. They basically have to mimic it,
but they know they notice that how important empathy is in
interpersonal relationships, right? And so they know that if
they can convince someone, they are being empathetic, then they
can, you know, I guess add another tool to their
manipulation tool belt, you know,
RC: how what do you know that what the prevalence is or just
what the overlap is with narcissism and sociopaths
sociopathy because that's very similar tack characteristic?
WW: Well, I think there is a lot of overlap, because essentially,
you're not really caring about other people's feelings. I think
the way, you know, narcissists tend to approach other people is
what can I get out of this person? What can this person do
for me? How can I get this person to do this thing that I
need them to do? Not like, I want to have the genuine
friendship or romantic or, you know, parent child connection
with this person?
RC: it the more I think about it, I would say if I had to put
a pin in it, it's that a narcissist still feel like they
they still it's ultimately to make themselves feel better
about who they are, or you know, they're insecure, whereas the
sociopath, maybe he doesn't care at all. Right, more about trying
to fit in with people that, you know, I mean, I'm not an expert,
but that seems like that makes sense.
WW: Yeah, I mean, maybe that's possible. But you know, I think
there's a lot of I don't know, I think there's a couple different
ways of looking at these people. I don't think they're all
necessarily going to be the same. But I do think a lot of
narcissists do have sociopathic tendencies. I mean, that would
make the most sense, because they basically look at people
from a utilitarian perspective, and they approach a lot of their
relationships that way, you know, what can I get out of this
person? And how can I use them? Right? Yeah, so anyway, going
back to this point of, of empathy, you know, if they are
trying to use someone, and they can act like they care about a
person's feelings that can go pretty far. And if you think
about, you know, even back a couple, probably not now, it
doesn't work anymore. But like, for the elites, and like,
mainstream media, and all of that a lot of these public
figures, politicians, right, will like project that they feel
bad about something. Or they'll put out a story like look, this,
this happened to, you know, this important person and you
shouldn't feel bad for them or they did something caring. So
like the earliest example of this in terms of like PR, you
know, manipulations, I guess the public is someone like John D.
Rockefeller, the country's first billionaire who was a total
garbage shaman and the way they tried to turn his reputation
around was by you know, showing videos of him like giving money
to like little pennies and coins to like children like look how
nice I'm being
RC: and stuff. I remember that there was a whole campaign about
the big the silver dime, right it was given every all the
shoulder come up and he hands out little dimes, you know,
that's, it's that. Yeah. That was like an actual marketing
campaign. Right. That wasn't totally Yeah.
WW: And I think that's really common with false selves of
narcissists, too is that they want to project someone who's
really empathetic, like I care about other people. And I think
the powers that be want us to think that also, and I think we
did touch on that a little bit before, but it's I think that's
definitely a commonality between the two groups, for sure. At
least tactic wise.
RC: I think it's a really important point. I mean, that's
kind of why I was asking about the sociopath overlap. Because
empathy is, I mean, something you would argue a narcissist is
aware of they clearly feel they, they're there. I mean, I It's
hard to say, because they're ultimately it's about
themselves. But ultimately,
WW: I think they know, when people expect them to show it
that they work to that. Yeah. To not be an outlier, you know,
yeah.
RC: To fit in, essentially, yeah. But what you're saying is
a really important point to think about it, you know, so
projecting empathy is, is, you know, the same overlap. So you
can see that exactly the same way, like and the same time
doing so in many ways that tries that the attempt is to make you
feel guilty, maybe not about, like, take an example of foreign
policy where, you know, showing a picture of a child, that's,
you know, in a bombing, like, like Oman, from Syria, for
example, you know, somewhere, then you somehow feel guilty,
like you didn't do enough. And really, it's all an illusion,
you know?
WW: Yeah, I'm sure it'll do that with Ukraine, you know, look at
this sad situation, we should have sent another 24 billion to
Ukraine, right? Why didn't you do it? Or why don't you listen
to John Bolton who said, don't worry about escalation, blow
everything up. When it's amazing people still listen to him. I
know I'm blowing. Yeah,
RC: I always point out that the same time you've got people on
the other side of the world, you know, who are standing there
watching people who they know are killing their family stand
up and act like they care or gain empathy from others, you
know, and that's a different like a byproduct of that, that
is very hard to like that causes extremists. We've always talked
about that.
WW: Yeah, well, another good example to like, think about the
fundraising campaign for that awful earthquake in Haiti, and
how all that money that was raised with like the Obamas, and
the Clintons, they built six houses, and the rest of it, they
don't know where the money went, right. But that whole campaign
was feigning empathy for the people that the people running
it, right. Feigning empathy for people in Haiti, knowing that
the people that were donating wanted to help those people and
then taking the money and running, basically.
RC: And then even another aspect of dynamic is that is that then
they take that and do terrible things with it, which is what
happened?
WW: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So
RC: it's happening. Now we right now, I think, by the way, sorry,
yeah.
WW: When it's upright, well, it was like the Red Cross, right,
that was involved with that in Haiti. So you know, why wouldn't
they do the same for the funds, they're collect connected
collecting for Maui right now. And actually, Obama was one of
the big voices, you need to donate to the Red Cross for
Haiti. And now he's the one saying donate to the Red Cross
for Maui. So he's obviously not a good person. And he projects a
false self, to the public, for sure. And I think a lot of these
politicians do and but again, I think these guys at the top
levels they have complete, like PR teams dedicated to shaping
that false self for them or as narcissists don't necessarily.
RC: Yeah. Well, I would say again, that the sociopath, well,
I mean, it goes both ways that they really do train their
entire lives like that. I've often heard that, specifically,
sociopaths are better, they will be better at emulating emotion
and people that actually have emotions. Because because they
just are their entire lives are training to be to project what
people are wanting to see.
WW: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And the more convincing it
is, the less likely people are to question if someone tries to
be like, actually, that's not a good person.
RC: Yeah. Right. I mean, Obama is such a great example. I mean,
even now, like you what you watch him talk, and if you don't
know this person, he very, very clearly projects a someone who
cares. Someone who is there for you, you know, is that, but we
know that's not true. I mean, at least in his actions. So these
are case a case study for that for sure. But I mean, the
question then becomes, do you think this person is? You will,
let's just move Obama aside, do you think there's examples of
people that are maybe not fully aware of how they're being used
in that way, that are that are being kind of trained as a
budding new narcissist in government, for example?
WW: Well, I'm sure there's like a, you know, as you move up the
ladder in politics, and you're sort of following other people
by example, and they're like this, you're like, this is the
behavior I have to engage in to be successful. And obviously,
once you get to the higher up levels of the government, or
really any really corrupt organization, you're gonna get
to the levels where you realize the extent of how, you know,
corrupt everything is and how the people are, you know,
there's a lot of theft going on and illegal activity and then
obviously, you know, you only get into that world if you're
Uh, down to participate in it. Right? Yeah.
RC: Right and compromisable typically, right, right, right.
Yeah,
WW: sure. And so, you know, you have people that are willing to
operate in that type of environment are probably willing
to be like the people that were around, right, or they were
before. And I'm sure a lot of these people are pegged early on
in their political careers or, you know, whatever the career
field is for those qualities.
RC: Yeah, I agree completely. You mentioned the the false
self, which is a real that's it's a really fascinating
conversation. We were talking about that beforehand, right?
The idea of how that applies to the direction all this seems to
be going in? How do you think that plays into all of this in
regard to how they're just actually training us through all
these platforms?
WW: So with social media, I hate I think the whole point is to
try and get us to identify more with the false self, which at
this point is really, you know, in the context of social media,
really, the internet is the digital self. Right? Yeah. Get
us to identify more with that than who we actually are.
RC: At the end of the day, that is, and I think we're right now.
WW: Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, obviously, you know, you look at
a project like the metaverse and digital twinning, and all of
that, and it's really obvious. You know, we've talked about
before how a lot of what's going on right now, the point is to
lead us there. But a lot of people aren't interested in the
metaverse like they tried to launch it, launch it during
COVID. And it was a flop. And a lot of what happened during
COVID with the lock downs was to get us super sucked into the
digital world all the time, because we couldn't go outside
and we could only connect with other people by a computer.
Right. So I think it was a big push. And I think perhaps they
expected it that change to happen a lot faster during COVID
than it actually did. Because the metaverse again was a flop
and so you have to continue and criminalizing it. How you know,
Pepe, how intense that connection with the digital
false self whatever becomes people to get people to want to
be in the metaverse or have digital twins. And you have to
at the same time make people so miserable in their real selves
or in their, you know, in reality in order for that to
happen. And when we talked about the metaverse, which was a few I
guess it was last year. Or maybe it was the year before 20 No, I
RC: Yeah. It's hard to say no, I think it was.
WW: Well, I've been in a hospital for 10 weeks. So I have
like no concept of time anymore. But we were we were talking
about how there was like a I think it was a former CIA guy
writing in some MSM thing about the metaverse and he was
basically saying, by the time your real life is so miserable,
you'll prefer the metaverse and he basically like said the quiet
part out loud, very gross. Yeah. But yeah, and so I think the way
it started with social media, you know, first is like what we
already talked about, like making people have low self
esteem, because they're trying to make themselves online and
publicly look the best they possibly can. And then
eventually, there's this gap that they you know, they're
putting all these filters on their pictures and all this
stuff. But that's not how they really look, when they look in
the mirror. What you're
RC: seeing in the gap is makes it creates an unsustainable or
rather a unreachable goal, right. So they're just never
happy with who they actually are.
WW: Yeah, and they'll never be happy. Because this is happening
like in teens and kids, and they're in their formative
years. And they're going to be you know, it's going to be kind
of hard to undo. And so it plays into this other stuff you're
talking about or that you brought up, you know, that's,
you know, seeking out kids right now. But there's also like this
Metaverse stuff and the immersive gaming. And all of
that is also appealing to those same groups. And it's
essentially the same. It's this authoring of the real self and
trying to get you to be like, Well, what I want to be my real
self is that online self is that digital self false self. And I
think
RC: both are just gonna ask you, what do you what do you think
will finish your thought, but what do you think the you know,
the reasoning is to drive people into that? Because the
narcissistic side is clear for why they want to create Let make
us feel lesser than but what's the I mean, the obviously the
bigger implications of the big the reset kind of direction of
all that but yeah, is that one?
WW: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Because I think the more people
feel like they need that digital false self in their lives, the
more addicted to it they are, the more they need it. They
won't give up their access to social media, they won't give up
their internet access. They'll do anything to keep the
smartphone or their connection to that digital self. They'll do
anything to keep it anything at all.
RC: Yeah, I mean that if you if you're looking for a connection
that's easy just to drive people into a point to where they're
desperate to maintain what they've created in this
Metaverse and then then insert the digital ID verification.
Yeah,
WW: you know exactly. Yeah, exactly. But this this is all
coming before the metaverse, you don't need the metaverse for
what I just talked about to happen. I mean, think about
Twitter right now. Twitter has rolled out the blue check. And
soon. If you're not a blue check, you won't be able to use
Twitter.
RC: Yeah, you know, oh, sorry. Good. I was gonna say, I'm gonna
talk about it later. Probably. I just thought today that they're
already starting to roll out what you and I've already
predicted is that the the next level of the verification, so
they get you, you know, because it's right now just a number. So
the next most people that already kind of got used to what
the benefits are they're getting are going to turn down, you
know, an iris scan or who knows what comes next, you know?
WW: Yeah, well, as you mentioned, the goalpost is
already starting to move right with everything about new
Twitter. I'm not going to call it X it's I don't mosque. Yeah,
cuz I mean, x was Elon Musk's, like failed bank from the late
90s. So it's always his ambition. And he's been open
about this with new Twitter is to turn it into his words, half
of the financial system, if not more. So. Basically, you know,
there's people that are completely addicted to social
media, they're on it constantly. They're on their phone
constantly. It's not everyone that uses social media, right.
But there is a group there that needs it. Or they're addicted to
the internet. And they can't live without it. So what you and
I have talked about in the past and what the plan that's been on
the books a long time, even before what's happening now with
new Twitter is to force people to connect their internet access
to some form of government issued ID and this was tried out
in the US, obviously didn't get very far. But they drew up plans
for it. And they called it the driver's license for the
internet. So a government issued ID is tied, probably through
your internet service provider. So you can't get online without
you know them knowing everything you do online because you're you
know, access through the gateway to even get to the internet is
everything you do online is going to be tied to that Id
they're gonna know exactly who you are. Right. And that was the
ambition then. And that's what's going to happen now. So a lot of
my work that I you know, I originally did for tea lab on
stuff like the the web partnership against cybercrime,
which is like the FBI, the Department of Justice, British
intelligence, Israeli intelligence, all of the big
banks. You know, it's within the WEF Pay Pal and all these other
entities are there. They're very open about that being their
ambition for how to end quote, unquote cybercrime on the
internet. Everyone's got to have an ID to get online. And there's
been a push to in mosque is one of them before he even bought
Twitter, authenticate all real humans on social media that Musk
said in the tweet, yeah. But there's been a push for this
elsewhere, especially among officials, for example, in
Australia campaigning against misinformation, no one should be
allowed to be an anonymous troll, and all of this stuff,
right? And so now what you have with new Twitter, right is this
effort to and it's not just tying your government issued ID
to new Twitter, the way they're rolling it out. You also have to
take a selfie and upload your government issued ID and the
selfie extracts it says it in the fine print biometric data
and that's the run through an Israeli company.
RC: This is a small side note but the partner
WW: company of Amdocs by the way, just thought that was might
be fun to point out that some people park corneas and docks
everyone's favorite Israeli intelligence front company since
like the early 2000s
RC: Or any number of other things you've done on the
overlapped Israeli intelligence with all these things in the in
the United States. But But do you think that the fate the
selfie, I mean, it says biometrics but that isn't
there's plenty of things that could mean do you think it's
taking iris scans? Do you think that's happening with what
they're doing?
WW: Well, I think if it's your selfie, it's not necessarily
going to be an iris scan because I think you have to use a
specific type of camera. This is going to be a selfie you take
with your I guess your computer webcam or your your phone or
something. So probably not. I guess I just wondered, I think
its mission, its facial recognition where they map your
face, right? Yeah,
RC: just as just as alarming. But yeah, I definitely see this
coming. And then you know, kind of bringing it back to the same
point is that then people are going to feel obligated or they
have to like these kids are addicted as you said, and
they're going to they're going to give this stuff up willingly
whether they realize it's bad or not. And then it just same
cycle, you know, into the next technocratic world of it.
WW: Totally. I'll give you an sample. So, you know, I was in a
relationship with someone that's ostensibly against all this
stuff, digital ide cbdc, and all of this stuff. And one day
before bed, he was like, you know, you're not going to be
realistically be able to resist the cbdc. And I got, like,
defensive, I was like, Yeah, of course I can. And that's what
I'm trying to do. And like, my whole life is dedicated to
resisting that system. And then he got mad, I was defensive, and
kept countering with all this stuff, like, well, then the kids
won't be able to live a normal life. And, you know, we won't be
able to buy stuff that we need, and all of this stuff, and I was
just like, whoa, you know, kind of blown away by that. But
people, you know, like, that are sort of in that narcissist
category, like the convenience, they might publicly project
again, this false self, that they align with this, and that
the way they want people to view them, right. But at the end of
the day, they like, what they become accustomed to, you know,
like, even if even people that are against it will be like,
Yeah, I'll take it because it means I can keep access to all
that stuff, right? I don't want to live without that stuff. Give
them
RC: more power over their ability to manipulate the way
people see them.
WW: Well, not just that, right. But you know, if you think about
like, narcissists, in general, they're trying to get people in
their lives to basically cater to their every whim, which is
actually impossible. It's like, a bottomless pit that you're
constantly trying to fill with dirt, when you're in those types
of situations, because the goalposts keep moving, and it's
never enough, because you're basically trying to fill a hole,
that's a, you know, a thing that they have to sort out in
themselves, you can't possibly do fix it for them. So you know,
they, they are trying to get people to to take care of them,
they don't really want to do it themselves, you know. And so
like they like that convenience a lot. I mean, the same person
I'm talking about to refuse to stop on locking their phone with
her face, but was also very against the use of facial
recognition by police, even though all the big tech
companies pass that facial recognition stuff on your phone
to police. But it's more convenient. Right? Right.
RC: It's just It's hypocrisy, right? At the core of it. All
right, these are your your your fate, as you said, the false
self, all all to your benefit at the expense of other people,
essentially, is that what seems to work out? But you know, how
do you how do you actually have a relationship with somebody
when you're like that? Not to not to veer away? Sorry, if you
wanna keep going, I just popped into my head, I just seems
impossible. You know? Well, yeah.
WW: Because you can't basically what happens when you're in a
relationship, whether they're your parent, or your boss, or
your boyfriend or girlfriend, is that, like I said, You're,
they're manipulating you to try and, you know, do whatever to
keep them stable, but they're not, they're inherently not
stable. So no matter what you do, and what hoops you jump
through, and you know, they'll tell you, everything's your
fault all the time. No matter what you try and do to change
yourself, it will never fix the situation. So ultimately,
depending on how long you're there for, it happens to
everyone, eventually, you end up feeling hollowed out, like to
have nothing left because you're in a relationship where you've
been literally giving everything you can possibly give. At the
end of the day, I mean, what you're basically giving no
matter what they're asking of you or telling you they need or
whatever, you're giving energy and you eventually you're just
left without anything. I mean, left feeling like you have none,
and that you have nothing and that you are nothing because at
the same time you're being continuously devalued for not
being good enough by this person.
RC: They're Emotional Vampires, right? Like literally, you know,
well, go ahead.
WW: No, no go you go. I'm just gonna
RC: add to the gaslighting is what you're talking about
gaslighting, and that's another overlap to what we're dealing
with everyday with power structures, you know, that just
constantly telling you, you know, it's almost a point, but
it's just different levels of this, you know, the gaslighting
is very clear and all that.
WW: Yeah, so gaslighting is interesting because if you think
about where the term comes from, it's from this movie. I think
it's from the 50s. And it's essentially a man with who with
malicious intent, wants to convince his wife that she's
mentally ill. And basically, he takes the gas lamps in the
house, which is where the term gas lighting comes from. Right.
And he and he slowly he slowly dims them. And when she comments
that they've been dumbed, he tells her that they haven't been
dammed and that there must be something wrong with her, and
over time, is gradually convincing her that she's
insane, and making her doubt her ability to observe and perceive
reality and the goal of gaslighting and by the way,
gaslighting is always done with malicious intent. The goal of
gaslighting is to have it so that you no longer feel
comfortable defining your own reality and You become dependent
on someone else to define your reality. And that person who
obviously did this to you a horrible thing to do to someone,
but they did this to you with malicious intent so that they
can define your reality to suit their needs and their whims.
RC: Yeah, like no no concern in any moment about how that makes
the other person feel. I mean, that's, that's actually, I've
never heard that before. That's really interesting. And that's
exactly what we're talking about, right? I mean, that is
narcissism, it's taxes. Clearly, you tell me, but that sounds
like a very prominent part of this whole thing.
WW: It I think it is a prominent part, because it's part of, it's
a key way in which you try and convinced this other person that
they can't, to make them dependent on the narcissist,
obviously. And just eventually, so that they can perceive. They
don't feel like they can perceive reality anymore. So
they're dependent on the person that gaslit them, who again,
oftentimes will feign empathy, Oh, I feel so bad that you're
having all these mental problems, right? I'm trying to
make you think that like, they're the only ones that can
help you, you know, making you feel like you have to depend on
them. And at the same time, that person if they're a narcissist,
or you know, also in the parallel, like the elites,
right, are trying to get you to serve them. And they're trying
to control you so that you constantly are serving them and
giving to them.
RC: Right and back and solidifying in your mind all the
time that you are the problem when that's the opposite. Right.
Yeah. The parallel to the government elitist discussion is
incredible with that. I mean, that's, that is like, you're
operating out of the handbook. It's exactly what they're doing.
WW: Well, I again, I think a lot of the people at the top, I
mean, to do what they're doing to the world, they have to be
narcissist, right? And psychopath and sociopath.
RC: So I guess, my guess my question is, you know, where we
might not that we can answer a tie? It's kind of just a
general, you know, is that a byproduct of the fact that
they're sociopaths in those positions? Or is this a
deliberate effort to create the situation to drive us in this
direction? It's probably both. But
WW: with the elites, it is definitely a deliberate effort.
And AI is a huge part of it. I'm actually as soon as I'm, you
know, free again, going to be working on something for
Catherine Austin, Fitz, that's exactly about this. And
artificial intelligence, it's going to be about a little bit
more than just what I'm going to say here. But there. So for tea
lab a few years ago, right, I wrote about the National
Security Commission on artificial intelligence. And the
head of that is Eric Schmidt. And Eric Schmidt's best friend
for life and mentor, is Henry Kissinger, and Henry Kissinger,
in him wrote a book about AI. So these are basically the people
like setting essentially with a huge influence over AI policy at
the national security level and beyond. Right. So this is
basically how the quote unquote Deep State wants to use
artificial intelligence and the stuff they say in this book is
so insane. So the overview of the point that's relevant here,
because obviously, they say a lot more in the book. But they
basically say, artificial intelligence can see realities
that we cannot see, because it's so much smarter than us. And
then in another part of the book, they say, the more we come
to depend on artificial intelligence, as our personal
assistants, and if you think about it, right, AI is now
creating music. It's creating art, it's replacing journalists,
it's writing, fiction and nonfiction for us it's doing all
of these things humans used to do right will become so
dependent on AI doing all that stuff that their words, we will
become cognitively diminished to the point where we become
dependent on AI. And we can't live without it. And the people
that become dependent on AI that way, will no longer over a few
generations be able to communicate with the people that
don't oh my god, basically like that extreme of a change in
people's minds basically reducing us big making us so
stupid that we can't function without AI. And because AI sees
a different reality than we do, and they also note in the book,
AI has no morality it has no emotions, all of that if it is
there is programmed by these people. Right? So you become
dependent on AI to tell you what's real and what's not. What
reality is and they don't see reality like we see reality,
right? So it's about people being I don't know what you want
to call it transformed really, into essentially a different
species where we can't perceive reality ourselves anymore in AI,
that these guys program does it for us. So that was like, the
same end goal is gaslighting, but taken like so far beyond the
goal. Exactly. But if the goal is to define another person's
reality to suit the needs and whims of the abuser Yeah, man
That's the biggest plan for AI because they claim to have, you
know, write all the news stories. They can deep fake any
video or any photograph they want now, and I think a lot of
this is probably playing out on social media like right now
because, you know, on Twitter especially, I mean, a lot of
these AI guys, you know, Elon Musk is an AI guy, right? And
was behind I think, one of the cofounders of open AI for chat
GPT chat, GBT is all over this Kissinger Schmidt book, all over
it. And it was before its big launch. We're just like, Oh, I
got to use it. It's gone viral. You know, this stuff is already
happening. And in that book, which I think was published in
2020. They're basically like, yeah, AI has already basically
taken over our lives, and people already can't live without it.
So they're expecting this to continue. And eventually, people
are going to have to say, No, I'm not gonna interact with this
crap anymore. And build something else. But my point is,
people have become so addicted to it, and addicted to the
feelings they get from that, you know, been created through this
whole dynamic we're talking about with the false self and
this public projection that there's a lot of people that
won't be able to live without it.
RC: Yeah, right. It's already being set up now, like you're
saying, I mean, they really aren't made in their own image.
I mean, you're having sociopaths literally make this thing into a
sociopath is what it sounds like. But what's crazy to me,
though, let me let me ask it this way for you. Because you've
written a lot about the art like whether or not they're truly
able to achieve that does in your mind? Is this them?
pretending this is artificial intelligence? And it's just
basically emulating what they are? Or is this actual? Or will
it be actual artificial intelligence that just acts in
that way? Because they've made it that way?
WW: Okay, so I think artificial intelligence and I've, we've
talked about this before, part of it is a psyop. It's not as
far along as they want, because one of the things we talked
about not that long ago, was we called it the Google AI,
sentient CYA, remember, and there was this guy that was
trying to say that Google's AI had become sentient and had
basically become like, the singularity. You know,
RC: that's kind of what I was reading. I should have made that
clear, not not just AI but specifically like, sentient AI,
like which is what they're aiming for. Is that how you see
this? Or are they is it still making it?
WW: It's gonna Yeah, the reason they want you to think that it's
like sentient and all this stuff, they're not going to be
able to achieve that. I think that part of it's a CYA, but
they will have it feign empathy, just like narcissists do, man,
right?
RC: They're literally taking narcissistic artificial
intelligence.
WW: But that's the point. Because the AI, they admit, is
like built in sociopathic, it doesn't have those things that
make us human, it's there to manipulate us for them. That's
the whole point. I mean, obviously, there's tested AI
does better and can like make things more convenient. But
these people are telling you what they want to use it for.
And it's like a narcissist on steroids. Yeah, to be
RC: honest, it's kind of blowing my mind right now. You're so I
mean, we're talking about them. The the people in authority, who
we all seem to recognize are sociopathic narcissist, building
artificial intelligence that they're already using to design
the way our lives are being maintained. Or have you seen
that? And they're literally creating it in a way that's it's
like they're like in an overlapping with a technocracy
mindset. They want to be like this, they want to make this
forever. I mean, it's just, it's terrifying. I mean, how do you
stop something like that?
WW: Um, okay, so
RC: awesome question. I'm just like, blown my mind.
WW: Well, one thing I mean, if you look up, like, you know,
anywhere about narcissism, how do you deal with a narcissist?
How do you end things with a narcissist? How do you get a
narcissist out of your life? The answer across the board is the
same. It's go no contact, perfect. If you can go no
contact, I mean, there's some people that try and make it
lesser contact. But honestly, in my experience, no contact is
what you have to do. Because you give them a little bit, and
they'll they'll try and suck you back in. I mean, every time I
think,
RC: just the fact that I didn't expect that when I said that I
thought was an impossible question. But really, what you
said is exactly right. You just get you you no longer engage
with artificial intelligence or the technology they're putting
in front. Right?
WW: It's the same answer. So with the powers that be in the
elite, that are like this, it is it's exactly the same, you're
right. It's going no contact right, with these systems and
build something else. And that's what you mean, Derek and a bunch
of other people have been talking for years now. But you
know, I think some people you know, like I sort of said
earlier, like, I've been good at seeing how this plays out on the
government level, but not so great about seeing how, you
know, seeing it in my own personal life, because of how I
grew up and stuff. Obviously, I've learned from that I hope,
but you know, I think there's people that maybe have the
opposite problem, and they're really good at seeing it in
their personal life but they don't believe the governmental
do it because their parents believe in the government and
everyone they know is always believed in the government. I
Maybe that's changing now to an extent, but there's still a lot
of people that buy into that stuff. You know?
RC: I agree. Yeah, that's interesting. You're right is to
kind of
WW: think about it. Yeah. About Is there a toxic person in your
life? You know, how do you deal with that? And they'll be like
in a second. Oh, yeah. Go no contact. But what about a
government that's trying to enslave you? Right, that's
pretty toxic. Right.
RC: Exactly. Yeah. Well, I mean, that that's very difficult,
though, right? Because that's, you know, depending on which way
you look at it, like just taken on the personal level, you know,
that the idea of somebody going no contact with somebody who's
become a central part in how they see themselves. I mean,
that's near impossible for some people.
WW: Yeah, sure. But, you know, at the end of the day, like in a
narcissistic relationship, like, like, like I talked about
earlier, you end up feeling like nothing and with no energy,
you're hollowed out, and you lose control over your life. You
lose complete control over your life. Because they, they want it
all. They want all the control. They want complete domination.
And it's not necessarily because they want all the stuff you
have. It's like the feeling. Yeah, I agree. But other people
that like, you know, or psychologists and stuff
essentially say the same thing, because it helps sort of numb
that those feelings that bubble out, bubble up from the real
self, right?
RC: Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. You know, I mean, so you
essentially get driven to a point of, you know, you're
already desperate, but now you're desperate in every sense.
So you might as well go, no contact and be desperate. What's
causing it? Yeah,
WW: exactly. I mean, it gets to a point where you just can't
keep going. Yeah, you know, and I think a lot of people with the
powers that be obviously haven't gotten there yet, and things
probably have to get worse for enough people to get it. But
people that know now, what's going to come? I think the
answer is pretty clear. But I mean, you can't control what
people do, obviously. I mean, I hope people are trying to go no
contact, but it's a whole issue of it disentangling yourself, so
narcissist when they get involved with you. And
obviously, you know, it's a slightly different situation
when you're gonna have a child of a narcissistic parent. But
the it takes time to disentangle yourself, it's not an immediate
thing, at least a lot of the time. And it's not easy. But
it's, it's the, it's really the only way to heal.
RC: Yeah. And I think the point being is that you don't, even if
you break contact, you still have to change as a person, as
you know, you without that person. And so that you're
right, it's a whole process to go through. And that's what I
think with this, this conversation will help people
see that in the sense of the way the government is acting in
their lives. Because you're because it's the same thing. If
you look at a personal relationship, it's like trying
to help somebody that have a cold. You know, you just don't
want yeah, you know, so there's Yeah, we're trying to break
through that for people.
WW: You know, I'm glad you brought up call because you
know, in cults, right, you have instant, you know, there's
Stockholm syndrome. And sometimes you hear that about
cults of survivors, trauma, bonding, those kinds of terms
get thrown around, but I think, you know, and I've heard this
from other people before, I can't really remember where but,
you know, there's, there's people that have said that,
like, people have Stockholm syndrome with the government,
right? Because you're grown up being taught that the government
is going to be there for you. And it's basically like a
parent. And ever since the beginning of American history,
it's been one long, steady road of progress leading to eventual
greatness. Well, I mean, that's the narrative and like public
school textbooks, I mean, public school, I mean, it's not real at
all. So you're, like, fed this illusion, and a lot of people
can't handle the reality, you know, and even if the system,
the reality is there, and the government is abusing them,
they'll still hold on to that. Right. And the same is true in a
in a narcissistic relationship a lot of the times because this
doesn't happen with narcissistic parents, because like I said,
earlier, kids are stuck with the parents. But with narcissistic
relationships, there's this initial phase that starts off
this trauma bonding thing. And people tend to call it love
bombing. So it's like the early stages of the relationship, and
you're just showered with affection by the narcissist
they're so nice to you. And they ended up they do this thing
that's called mirroring where you'll like you'll say, you like
something and they'll be like, Oh, I love that thing too. And
they probably never even heard of it. But they like basically
become they study you essentially. Yeah. And are
trying to present themselves basically is your soulmate,
because there's so much like you and what's what are the odds
that we're so much like each other and all of this stuff?
Because I mean, it sounds like
RC: you know, someone that's literally studying your every
move and then emulating that it's like they want to become
you. It's terrifying. Well, like
WW: earlier, like I mentioned with empathy, how they sort of
mimic it. I think this is kind of the same. This is how I get
someone to fall in love with me. because they just they've
studied it and done it enough times that they know. So after
that phase ends, you know, they start, you know, the abuse might
start. And then they start doing this thing that, you know, as
far as the terminology club goes, they'll call it bread
crumbing, right, where basically like, you know, there will be
abuse, and then there'll be like a glimmer of the behavior that
was in that love bombing stage. Right, or a period of calm where
they act like that person again. And so and then it'll go back to
the abuse. And so you're left thinking, Oh, I can fix this
person. Or if I do, what they tell me to do, and what they're
telling me to do, and I accept that I really am the problem
100% of the time, which no relationship, it's like that,
you know, then that person will come back. And we can have the
perfect relationship like I thought it was going to be in
the beginning. And they'll just stringing you along that way for
a long time. And that's essentially what trauma bonding
is in the narcissistic relationship. But you'll you
know, I think the way the government does that is more
with like a PR campaign, you know, they'll they'll manage it
that way and be like, Oh, well, the government's on this awful
thing. Oh, well, look over here. Look at the nice thing the
government's done. Or look, Joe Biden's with his cute dogs don't
mind that they've eaten almost eaten a bunch of Secret Service,
or that, you know, his son's insane, and they're super
corrupt, and, oh, look, they hung stockings for their
grandkids and all this stuff. You know, I mean,
RC: that's an important part of it, too, is the whole, you know,
the basically just trying to earn that, you know, trying to
act like project that out to the world and what they do, like you
mentioned something before, actually, when you said like
farming sympathy, you know, it's like that, that's something that
it seems is absolutely necessary for these people to maintain
what they're doing is to, you know, like, I guess it's the
same point from the beginning, actually, the idea that they
need to project that so people see them that way, you know,
it's kind of full circle.
WW: Yeah. And don't worry about it. Well, there's this other
thing, too, like in that PR campaign that the government
does. So like, they'll have the ones where they make the
leaders, the people in charge, like, oh, look what great
people, they really are with PR stuff. But there's this thing
with narcissists, too, that sort of, well, a lot of times I've
seen it referred to as the smear campaign. So usually when
narcissists realize they can't keep using a person, or that
person is no longer serving them the way they want. They discard
them. But before they discard or if, you know, at some point, you
know, they don't necessarily have to be thinking about
discarding the person but in the individuality that they decide
to they they start slowly saying, you know, behind their
back, like, oh, yeah, well, the person I'm dating is actually
crazy to some people here in there. You know, it's like an
insurance policy, in a sense, so they have certain people primed
to be on their side when things
RC: finally go south. Very calculating. Yeah,
WW: yeah, totally. And so I think the government does this
to like, you know, they've essentially been setting up for
years that everyone that doesn't vote for the Democratic Party is
a domestic terrorist.
RC: Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, you know, hyperbolic terms for, you
know, the capsulate, everybody in one category is something
that's
WW: crazy, totally. And there's a lot of twisting of words,
which also happens with narcissists, you know, so like,
someone that doesn't want to give their child every vaccine
is automatically anti Vax, exactly hates every vaccine, or
people that just want people to have the right to choose, even
if they've gotten all the vaccines themselves anti backs,
you know, and there's like this. I mean, that's really common for
for narcissists to do too. I have a ton of examples there. I
don't even know if I can pick one. But you know, you see it
all the time with with these people too. And another thing
that's really common with narcissists also is that they
don't have they don't allow people in their lives, the
people, they abuse to have boundaries, they don't allow
healthy boundaries at all. So in the case of narcissistic
parents, they see children, their children as extensions of
themselves. And so like, they don't give their children
privacy at all, like so for example, like when I was a kid,
I'd get, you know, my mother would have keys to every part of
the house. So like, even if I was like, going to the bathroom,
she could come in and scream at me. Like, I wasn't even allowed
to have that time to myself, she'd go through all of my
stuff. I obviously didn't keep a diary, because she looked for
them, you know, searched my room multiple times a day, you know,
you're not allowed to have privacy at all. And, well, the
powers that be if you think about it, they don't want you to
have any privacy. Right? And if you think about it, healthy
boundaries, in a sense, you know, if you think of it on the
societal level or the governmental level, it's the
law, right? That's what's supposed to be the boundary He's
in society, you can't break the law, you can't break that
boundary that's been placed there for a specific reason. But
the powers that be themselves, they break the law all the time
without consequence. Right? Right. And so the boundaries are
just for the people beneath them interesting.
RC: It's all inherently ties back to insecurity. And that's
exactly the same point with either situation, the government
is very aware that we all see what they're doing. And so what
they're doing is not trying to keep us safe from ourselves.
They're prying in to our internal conversations to make
sure that they know what's going on. Same thing, right. Like
you're, you're staying with your family, it's not about like,
making sure you're not doing something wrong, at least in my
opinion, it sounds more like they're worried about what you
might be doing, they don't want or that you might find something
they don't want you to see. Or that's what it would sound like
more to me, it's more inherent in security, you know, just the
government. I
WW: don't think they're good. Yeah. Well, in my case, I don't
think if it was insecurity, I think it was about establishing
control, control, and dominance, but wanting you to be afraid of
them.
RC: Your personal situations, obviously, you you know, more
than anybody I mean, like in a general sense, though, don't
couldn't you argue that control is kind of overlap with the same
way that people need that control as sociopaths and
narcissists, because they're insecure about what you may do
when you're not doing exactly what they want. Like, that's how
I would see that.
WW: Yeah, maybe maybe to an extent. But I think at the same
time, you know, like I was reading on about what you know,
because of my experiences, I spent a lot of time reading
about how Pete other people's experience of narcissism and
there was this one story of this dad, that was the narcissist in
this case. And he had three daughters. And he gave his three
daughters and necklaces, and he said, when they were little like
four, five, and six, and said, You have to wear these necklaces
all the time, you can't take them off, because I'll know if
you take them off, and I'll see everything you're doing. You
know, basically being like, they're wearing surveillance
technology, and they were terrified to have them on and
terrified to take them off. And obviously, they were just like
little glass bead necklaces, or something. And that has not,
that's about control. That's about making them terrified of
you. Yeah, and doing whatever they say, because you're, it's
using fear to control people. And, you know, narcissists do a
lot of that too. And one of the reasons, you know, that I have
not, like I told you before we started recording, you know, one
of the reasons I've never really opened up about my experiences
before is because I've been too scared. Even though, you know,
I've, you know, don't have contact, really, with my
parents, you know, I'm scared, oh, this, you know, I publicly
talked about it, I might get back to them, and they'll say
something to me. I mean, it really won't really affect my
life very much at all, especially at this point, you
know, especially now because like, my sister and my dad all
know, the situation, you know, they might have denied it when I
was younger, but they they all we all agree now, you know, but
I'm still scared. Just to say what happened to me. And the
same thing to with with my ex. You know, I we broke up. Several
months ago, I was scared to say anything. And it wasn't until
you know, my son was in the hospital, he was treating me
like crap. He didn't even ask what he could do to help his
son. And then he was, you know, trying to ruin relationships
with people that I work really closely with, behind my back,
including people that contribute to my site and I regularly co
author articles with and not just them, I mean, a bunch of
other people, you know why I've been going through this awful
experience with our child. And at the same time, this person
was also trying to publicly farm sympathy and publicly fundraise
off of my son's condition, even though he has never and we'll
never send money. So, you know, I got I stopped being afraid at
that point, because I, you know, I don't want to have to cower in
fear of people forever. You know, I was controlled by fear
for a long time. And I don't, you know, not feared the
government, right. Like, I don't have a problem on that level.
But in my personal life, I you know, why? I had all this time
to just sit there and think about my life and my kids and
you know, who I am, you know, I mean, I put my daughters through
hell, while I was in a relationship with this person.
That was wrong with me. I should have been stronger and not been
controlled by fear. But I was, you know, it's really sad. It'll
always be sad for me, you know, but I can't continue to do that.
I have to stand up to the bully at some point. And I think all
of us have to, whether it's the government or someone, I mean,
people don't deserve to be treated that way. And I grew up
feeling like I deserve to be treated that way. All right. And
for me to move on, I have I just felt like I had to publicly talk
about it. Because I didn't know any other way to break that
fear. You know?
RC: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's obviously it's a very brave
thing to do in general, just for you. But I think you know,
what's important? Is it you tell me if you know you, we don't
even talk about this, depending on how much you want to get into
it. But the action of making this step, you know, this is the
healing part we're talking about, you know, like the fact
that you, like you said, like, you're no longer scared. So for
those listening, you know, what do you think was the turning
point for you? What was it? I mean, obviously, you have this,
this very powerful, this profoundly changing moment where
you're suffering with your son, and you know, you've decided to
reflect on that? Is that what you think, kind of put this over
the edge? Or was there something you kind of did that made you
realize that you need to be different? Well, you
WW: know, it, there was a lot of stuff that happened over the
course of relationship that was, you know, pushed me over the
edge a few times, I guess, you could say, because I, you know,
I broke up with this person, or tried to multiple times. But,
you know, the only reason I said something publicly, you know, I
really don't like like I said earlier, I don't like talking
about my personal life at all. Um, and so it has to get to a
really bad point for that to happen. And, you know, when your
son's been on a ventilator for five days, and you don't know if
they're going to come home, and then you have their dad, instead
of saying, How can I help? Is there anything I can do? You
know, bullying you demanding stuff from you, and then
threatening you. It's just, it was just too much, and then
trying to trash your reputation behind your back. It's, I just,
I couldn't, you know, I didn't want to have to take that lying
down anymore. I mean, it's just dehumanizing. And, you know,
that whole relationship left me feeling completely dehumanized.
Anyway, and I was, you know, before my son ended up in the
hospital, I felt like I was really coming out of that, and
then to have to go through all that again, no, I just no way.
And I mean, I mean, there's, you know, a lot of awful stuff that
happened before them, too, you know, and I don't really need to
spew all the details or anything, but it um, you know,
at a certain point, people have to have read lines, whether it's
in their personal life, or, you know, with the powers that be,
you know, healthy boundaries are important. And, you know, for
me, it's been hard because, you know, as a kid, I wasn't able to
have boundaries. So, like, being able to establish them, for me
is like a lifelong struggle, or has been, you know, I'm like, a
33. So I'm not that old, I guess. But, um, it's definitely
taken a long time. For me to tell people, I don't like being
treated that way. Like, normally, I just take it, you
know, and, you know, that's something I have to learn. I
mean, we all have stuff that, you know, we've had to deal
with, because of, you know, how we grew up. And, you know,
everyone's case is different, obviously. But I don't know, I
mean, it's been, it's definitely been, that's been a particular
challenge. And in my case, and, um, you know, having low self
esteem sucks. You know, especially when you're like,
working in an environment like alternative media, where so many
people are not like that, and have really high self esteem.
And, you know, some of them are probably, you know, on the
narcissistic spectrum a bit too, and obsessed with, you know,
influencer status, where I feel like, you know, those tendencies
we were talking about earlier on social media, I feel like for
people that do have those tendencies, once they have a
massive following, and, you know, a bunch of followers that
has to go into overdrive for some people. Yeah. Want to go
ahead, go ahead. Yeah, well, you know, in my particular case, you
know, I was told, when I broke up with this person that, you
know, I couldn't break up with them, they told me, because this
was their chance to make it an independent media by being
associated with me. They, I mean, they essentially told me
that they've been using me the whole time. And like, I don't
care about this stuff at all. Like, I will be very happy when
this whole ID driver's license for the Internet stuffs rolls
out, because I can go like, play with my kids and garden and do
stuff that I actually like, you know, right and not have to
report on like, Insane Clown world dystopia every day and be
stuck on a screen constantly. You know, but I mean, there's
people that are willing to, you know, trap someone in a
relationship by impregnating them and all this stuff just to
get that stuff. I mean, it's mental and like, makes me also
really think you know about alternative media. I mean, after
that experience and in a different way, you know, because
I always wanted to think that oh, well, people that see stuff
is anti system and anti establishment are, you know,
they're not going to be like those guys. Right? And you know,
at the end of the day, I think so I mean, even if a lot of
people in alternative media, maybe they didn't start off that
way, I think that same model that we were talking about
earlier, exactly, over time, has led some people, more people
than before in alternative media and independent media to really
be all about the followers and the clicks and the money, the
revenue model, it's definitely gotten pretty far away from,
from the truth telling and the integrity and being better than
MSM, I think a lot of, you know, influencers, quote unquote, and
alternative media have essentially become MSM spouting
a different variety of talking points at the end of the day.
And it's really disappointing. So, I don't know, I mean, I
good. Well, I think also, like, what there needs to be more of
an alternative media, if we're going to differentiate ourselves
from mainstream media is be authentic, you know, and I think
there's not enough authenticity. I think there was earlier on,
you know, if you think back many years ago to when it was sort of
just starting, and I think people, you know, with time can
tell, at least, you know, people that are more critically
thinking can sort of sniff out who's authentic and who's not
pretty easily over time. You know, because people will tell
you who they are. Eventually, you know, and but I think, you
know, even in the political sphere, for example, so I don't
want to dunk on on Robert F. Kennedy. I mean, I think some
people can imagine that I don't like his Israel position, right.
Yeah. But you know, I've met him. And he's always been really
nice to me. When my son was in the hospital, he sent me an
email saying he was praying I'm in that was really nice. He
didn't have to do that, you know, you know, I don't think
he's a bad guy. But I think, you know, whoever told him to run
for office, or it was his idea. He was given bad advice. And I
think this happens to a lot of people that run for office with
good intentions. They pander. I mean, someone asked me at the
Bitcoin Conference, how I felt about Robert F. Kennedy. And I
was like, you know, when you really love a video game, and
then it's really successful, and then the company comes almost
always Electronic Arts, and then they come in, they try and dumb
it down so that more people buy the next game, and then they
ruin it, by trying to like make it appeal to more people. That's
what happens when someone you you like or want to, like, runs
for office, right? I agree, at least Yeah, that's how I feel
about it. And so you know, I think if Robert F Kennedy, or
someone like him, had gone into this being like, you know what,
I'm going to keep authentic views, and I'm not going to
pander to powerful groups and lobbies, they're just going to
be authentic and say what they really think. And even if some
people don't like it, people like the authenticity because
everyone in political offices inauthentic pretty much, you
know, exactly that is, people want something real, because
everything's freaking fake, you know? Yeah, it's everywhere.
Yeah,
RC: I was just gonna say on a couple things in general, you
know, you point out the, the social media aspect of it is
that on the other side of that, the other way around, is that
you're also being overwhelmed with negativity all the time,
from people, you know, we anybody in this field, you know,
well, that you up, you do a show, and you get half the
comments, or people just very just vitriol, just negative
angry mean things. And that builds up to, you know, and that
has an effect. And by the way I thought about that is, you know,
to your point about social, independent media, and how a lot
of them have kind of con gone down that same path. I think
some of that's intentional people that just really don't
care about money, but a lot of money might be inadvertent, you
know, we're because they're in this cycle. We talked about in
the beginning, that what social media does to you that you just
find yourself in this position. And now at the end, like you've
been speaking about about Twitter, you know, that now
you've got this model. That's, it's like this quiet killer
where people didn't realize this building, and suddenly they're
mixed up in this, their entire industry, have they built
hinging on Twitter, ad revenue, you know, and it's like, it's,
you can see, you know, that yeah, you know, it's
WW: the ad revenue. Yeah, the ad revenue sharing thing has taken
it to a next level, because they've monetized engagement.
And so you had like, you and I both talk commented on some guy
that had viral tweets about Maui for tweeting something that was
totally fake and saying it was Maui, and we both got blocked.
Right, but that guy got a ton of engagement. And he he's part of
that program. him, right? So he's made a bunch of money, just
saying whatever. And so people can say now post any sort of
thing that they think is gonna get a reaction, whether negative
or positive, most likely negative, right and make money
off of it. Well, I
RC: would say, though that I think, obviously, we have free
speech in mind, even though it's not what Twitter's doing that
they should be allowed to say that which I'm sure you agree
with. But what I see happening, which is interesting is they're
censoring things that are true, which is actually happening, and
then almost raising up this stuff that's false. And what I
think is truly happening is they're creating what they've
always said the independent media is, and it hasn't always
been, like, we're all just in this for the money where the
money is barely ever been there for anybody in this field, where
it suddenly they're like creating this loop, right,
totally rush for fake news, like actual fake information, and
then they can point at it.
WW: Exactly. Yeah, I think that's part of it. Because I
mean, if you see, you know, Moscon, new Twitter is being
part of this technocratic system eventually. And that's the
ambition that Musk has for it. Right. And they have to find a
way to sort of, you know, essentially destroy independent
media. And so part of that is going to be an attack on the
credibility of people that aren't mainstream media, or
approved media. And people like that, obviously, play into it.
It's an old tactic of poisoning the well, right. So like the
welcome be full of clean water, but you put like a dropper to a
poison, and then you ruin the whole thing. Right? And they can
point to that and be like that, well, all the waters gross,
don't use it. So, um, you know, it's essentially the same goal
at the end of the day, I think, um, but, you know, it's not just
that to. So, you know, I think there's a lot of people and, you
know, this is true of narcissists. Also there's like,
an addiction, in my experience anyway, to drama and conflict.
If it's not there, they have to create it, because they need
that fighting, they get something out of it, you know,
the constant back and forth and the, and whatever. And for some
people that you know, it's online, like arguing online,
right? And not necessarily everyone that argues online is a
narcissist. I'm not saying that. But I think the same sort of
addictive stuff that happens in a person's brain when they get
likes and followers, and lots of shares. Some people get addicted
to arguing constantly and online gives them you know, that the
means to do that, and then you can monetize it on top of it,
and then have it everywhere in everyone's face viral promoted,
and all of a sudden, Twitter is just full of this toxic stuff.
RC: Yeah, totally. You know, it's an interesting thing that
we don't like, I don't know enough about the site like the
actual physiology. That's the right word, like the chemical
makeup of what happens in this process in people's minds. But
one thing I've read about in the past is you know, that people
like for instance, taking the the argument argumentation on
Twitter, in the back of the what that does for you, and in most
cases for people, when you get into an argument, or a fight,
it's cortisol, right? Your fight or flight you're fighting, you
know, but what happens for people that are doing this, you
begin to change the way your your brain works to where you're
producing a different you get a plot, like a pleasure response
from making people angry, and that it just it rewires your
brain. Oh, that's terrifying. I mean, I think that's part of
what's happening.
WW: Yeah, that's very possible. I didn't know that. That's
crazy. That's crazy. You can get pleasure from making someone
angry.
RC: Well, we know that exists. You know, there are people just
like, like people that are, you know, they were they hurt
themselves during sex. And, you know, so there's an overlap
there for some people, but I don't think it's intentional for
some of these people. You know, we're, you're just crazy
WW: to me. Yeah. Good. No, I just said, it's crazy. To me it
mainly because he like, because of how I grew up. And there was
this constant generation of drama in the household, like, I
hate conflict. I hate it when people get it. Like, let's not
fight let's, how can we defuse this situation? Let's deal with
this later. And, I mean, it's just a nightmare. For me. When
someone's angry, I'm like, How do I calm them down is like how
I react to it not I just can't imagine being like, that was
awesome. I made the mad and
RC: feeling that feeling you get when I know exactly what you're
talking about it feeling you can't shake when you walk away
from some negative confrontation. At least for me,
you it sounds like people with emotions, that you just feel
this negativity that you can't get rid of. And people are
either like that to begin with, or they end up seeking that, you
know, and it just becomes something they stretch. Like I
grew up with people that used to get, you know, they they
actually would love to get in fights growing up in high
school, you know, and that's the same thing. You're producing a
feeling that you enjoy through that, which it shouldn't be the
way that works. It should be the opposite. But you know, people
change that or they're born that way. You know, I think there's
something in there that has to do with exactly what we're
talking about. I'm just not educated enough on that process
to speak on it. But that's interesting to me.
WW: Well, there's a whole bunch of different aspects of this
that have been like there's a lot of studies I mean, I'll see
what I can throw in the show notes. But yeah, I mean, there's
people that have devoted their lives essentially to studying a
lot of these dynamics and, and things like that, not just not
necessarily like how the powers that be do it right, but in like
interpersonal relationships. And there's a guy named like that.
RC: There's a guy named Simon Sinek that I've referenced many
times in the past, he kind of doesn't overlap like that. Well,
it's actually more so about why our so called leaders aren't
actually leaders. It's a really great it's called Why leaders
eat last I think, is when he was a title. And he gets into that
exact point, the, the, you know, cortisol, endorphin, dopamine,
serotonin, and, you know, goes over how each one and how it
applies. His whole point, though, is that you get people
that are, you know, they basically act in their own
interest. It's the same kind of conversation we're having. And
his larger point is that true leaders put themselves last. But
that's the opposite of we're dealing with today, right? We're
we're dealing with people that are saying, No, I need to eat
first. Because if I don't, I can't lead properly, even if you
have to die to do it. Like those are?
WW: Sure. No, most definitely. Well, I think that's the
narcissism thing, too. Because ultimately, they're, you know,
the people you're talking about, right? They're the center, they
center everything based on their experience. And their experience
is what matters. And, you know, if you have a conversation with
one, they'll frequently talk about themselves for most of it.
And, you know, that extreme focus on them makes it very hard
for them to think about others first. And obviously, if it's
hard for them to think about others first and minor
situations, in dire situations, it's impossible, right?
RC: Absolutely. I mean, they almost create a situation with
both in relationships, as well as government where they create
like, like, as if you become president, you you then convince
yourself that you are the most important person, even if you
may be in some cases like so that dynamic plays.
WW: Yes, I think that's probably true. But if you think about the
current president, I don't think he even knows what day it is. So
I agree with that.
RC: Let's talk about being a congress. Presidents. Yeah.
Yeah. I think Trump's a pretty good example. But you know,
people freak out about the comparison. You know, if
personal power in general, you know, you convince yourself that
you are the most important and then it's like the self serving.
You know, it's interesting, in that I think in a relationship
is more more of a good point is that you create a situation
where you convince yourself that this person couldn't exist
without you. And that's like a self serving problem. You know,
WW: you brought up Trump and it's crazy for me, because you
see stuff posted by Trump supporters. It's obviously not
all Trump supporters, but there's like a group of them, I
guess they're probably sort of in the queue anon group. But
they basically talk like, Trump's going to come back to
office and they're like, it's gonna be biblical. And they talk
all about how he is was chosen by God or chosen by Jesus, or
he's this and that. I mean, it's like all this religious stuff
about Trump, how he's basically like the Messiah. And can you
imagine the guy that's already like known for having
narcissistic tendencies? And then he has followers who are
like that and treating him like he's God on earth? Oh, man did
that's scary. He probably loves being president.
RC: Oh, yeah. She goes back to the point you made earlier is he
probably also enjoys the negative attention just as much
to some degree, you know?
WW: Yeah, it's possible when it surprised me, honestly. Well,
yeah. Because I mean, this whole thing with the indictments,
you're having, like all the people that hate Trump being
like, yeah, and all the people that love Trump being like, Oh,
look, he's such a hero, because look out persecuted he is. Yeah.
RC: Well, either way, you're at the center of all of it. That's
really the center of all of it.
WW: Exactly. Yeah.
RC: Why people still exist, and they really do you know, that
they're like, my prediction will be that Trump if he wins, that
they're going to say, see, we told you he'd be put back in
office. It's like, wait a minute, that's not what you
said. You said he would be put back in because he, you know,
it's gonna be another narrative where they justify what they
predicted what happened, but didn't the way they said it
would queue on on it's just a, there's gonna people are gonna
write books about how crazy that was. For decades back.
WW: Yeah, but I mean, it's still going on. And there's different
segments of Q anon Right? Like there's the Q anon people that
were like, Okay, I'll trust the plan for a while. And then there
were the Q anon people that traveled to Dealey Plaza in
Texas to see John F. Kennedy Jr. Come back from the dead and take
over the country.
RC: Seriously. It means it's probably not not to force the
the overlap, but you could make an argument that that's actually
part of what's happening with them to what we're talking about
today. Like, like that they're at the center of the story. Oh,
right. No, and nobody else does. And, you know, part of that's
there too, because the evidence isn't there. We all know that.
They manufacture this reality. So they feel the center of
something that could be part of
WW: it. Yeah, totally. No, that definitely happens. For sure.
And they, in my experience, they have to be the hero and the
victim simultaneously of every The story they tell they're
never the bad guy. Yeah. It's very bizarre. But again, you
know, for someone who is trying to cover up in an extreme way
extremely wounded inferior feeling self, they have to
project something that is totally different from that
reality. And so, it, it seems good to them and makes them feel
good. But to people that aren't that, I guess for lack of a
better word, like distorted, eventually, when it becomes
like, so disconnected from actual reality, the way they
talk about themselves, you know, you can sort of start to tell,
yeah, right, because like, they don't, what their that whole
false self isn't anchored in reality at all right? And so it
can go to places that other people will notice is not in
line with reality. And they won't necessarily tell that
person but like, they'll be, you know, people will notice, not
everyone, you know, because, you know, narcissists are also
inherently charming, and charismatic, what they project,
right. That's how they rope people in in the first place.
And they're very good at convincing you they're great, at
least for a while. Yeah, I think it's much easier for them to
maintain it online, to be honest, because it's less work
than having to maintain it in person, when you have to
maintain it in person, I feel like it lasts less, much less
time. Because online, you don't have to put that much time and
energy to it. So you can perpetuate it for years,
depending on the frequency, you're talking to the people
you're trying to convince. You're so amazing.
RC: Yeah. And you also don't have any like real actual
relationship is superficial, like they see you through this.
WW: Exactly.
RC: You have to Yeah, exactly.
WW: So we've been going almost a good while now. Anything you
want to add that we haven't brought up yet, or?
RC: No, I just I, you know, I would just just in general say
that, you know, I know that this some of this stuff. And it was
very hard for you to talk about. And I just want to just, you
know, commend you on that, in general. And I think that what I
was asking before is, you know, clearly, it's it's just hard to
talk about, but I think that people, just by hearing what
you're discussing here today, that it's one of the things that
stands out to me is not just acknowledging that this exists,
but finding a path away from it. Right. So we've talked about
this, the government, you know, but like, like you said, there's
a lot of people that are living in these relationships, and
maybe haven't even recognized that yet, you know, so
hopefully, what you're discussing can allow them to see
it, you know, and then give them the courage, like you have to
step away from it and make changes in their life that can
hopefully stop that from happening in the future. So I
just, you know, I think it's an important conversation. And I
know, it's hard to talk about, so thank you for setting it up.
WW: Well, you know, I have more to share, I'll probably, you
know, tack it on to the end of this episode at some point,
because, you know, I, I would like people to know, you know,
why I care so much about them, you know, what I what I do and
where it came from, but I didn't want that to dominate the
conversation, because like we've been talking about today, I
think there's a much more conversation to be had about
that. And, you know, I feel like doing it this way, you know,
people can get something positive out of it.
RC: Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, that's what I'm saying
is, I think people will listen to this. And, you know, it'll
give them the courage to try to make these steps for themselves.
And I think that's positive, no matter how you look at it.
WW: Well, you know, in my case, you know, when you select
gaslighting, when we talked about earlier, you have a hard
time, it becomes hard to know how you experience reality, if
that's actually how it is like you doubt yourself all the time
you're like instilled with this doubt, in your like in your
like, is it really is me that I really experienced it that way.
And you know, really, the only way to get out of that is to
take notes of what you experience when it happens. And
you refer back to it, that it had like a record, you know, I
had to do that. And it was immensely helpful. But the other
thing was that I had to literally immerse myself in
stories of other people that had been in relationships like this.
I had to, I had to read a load of it from all sorts of
different people all sorts of different. I mean, there's a
whole Reddit about this, and like all different forums and
websites where people talk about their experiences. And that was
really helpful and like affirming because it's like
hard, especially when there's kids involved. It's like a hard
thing to and,
RC: yes, we didn't even get into that aspect of it. And just that
that makes it exponentially more difficult.
WW: Yeah, well, you know, I don't really need to get too
into it, I guess. But it
RC: was. I didn't mean for now. I just meant to point out. Yeah,
go ahead.
WW: Well, it's all a matter of disentangling yourself. So like
when you're talking about going No Contact is a solution to like
the powers that be or a toxic abuser in your life. The degrees
of entanglement are different for everyone. So there's some
people that like live a certain way and they're not very
entangled with the powers that be and there's some people that
are very entangled, right, and so obviously, depending on your
individual case, or the relationship you're trying to
get out of it. There's different degrees of entanglement. And so
depending on how entangled you are there's, you know, that that
mean, that sort of defines how difficult it is to go no
contact? You know?
RC: Absolutely, I guess I would just end with saying that, you
know, I think that one of the main kind of morals of all this
story is that, you know, it is possible, right, you know, not
to make it to the, you know, grandiose or fluffy, or I'm
gonna call it, but I do think that people can, it's possible,
you know, you can make these changes, and you can better
yourself in 1000 different ways, but in particular, just
recognizing this and growing from it, you know, and I think
that's, again, that people can hear this and give them that
first step. You know, that's a really positive thing. Yeah.
WW: But the thing about No Contact is that people take a
time to realize that's the point. And the reason, or that's
what they have to do. And the reason it takes them a while is
because they think the person will change. People like this
don't change, no matter what you do, you cannot change them, they
have to change them. And the same is true for the powers that
be in the government. Nothing is going to change the government,
you can vote as hard as you want, the system will not
change. That's the whole point of this, you know, what's
basically become a meme now of the deep state, the deep state
is about the shadow government that really control stuff. And
the elected offices are essentially fronts for them at
the end of the day, right? So vote harder, it's not going to
change. So you can participate in the political circus, that is
the election, and think that you're going to change the
system from within by voting for guy, XY and Z. But that's not
going to happen, it will still be there, it will still be the
same. And the only way to free your life of the insanity going
free yourself from the insanity that they are trying to impose
on you is to have nothing to do with them. Period, right?
Because it's they're not going to change. So once you realize
that the system or the person that you're trying to avoid
disentangling yourself from is making you miserable, is never
going to change, no contact becomes the only possible way
forward, ultimately.
RC: Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's the government aspect
here is really the overarching point of all of it, you know,
that people need to learn from this and stop leaning into
things that are affecting their lives in negative ways.
WW: Well, you know, like I said earlier, how, like, I grew up
feeling like I deserve to be treated like shit, right?
There's people that will take so much shit from the government,
and not do anything about it. And if you think about, like,
what people are enduring right now, and no one's still really
doing much about it. It's kind of it's really the same thing. I
think people, not just in the US, but really everywhere are so
conditioned and used to being treated, like, like, like dirt
by the government, as like, subhuman by the government,
people are just used to it. And it's been normalized. Right? And
it really shouldn't be
RC: scary. Think about?
WW: Well, I think it's I think it's pretty true, though, right?
I mean, if you look at right now, you know, how much money is
being sent into essentially a black hole and Ukraine, and
people in Maui are getting like $700 That last, like homes that
are worth like, you know, millions or less, but you know,
definitely way more than $700. And that's supposed to be like,
I mean, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous.
RC: It that's meant to be and so
WW: there's, you know, an infinite list of American
tragedies. Exactly. And there's an infinite list of like,
American tragedies, where it's just the government did nothing,
or it made the situation worse. And a lot of times for the
benefit of people that finance the politicians, or the benefit
of the government itself. It's been going on for a long time, I
think the difference now is that there's a growing awareness of
it. But we have to do something with that awareness. You know,
exactly. Because if you're aware, you're in abusive
relationship, and you do nothing to make it better for you or
your kids. You know, what good is the awareness? Right? And the
same is true of the government and the quote unquote, system,
the powers that be if you're super aware of how this is, that
system is working to enslave you and your children, and you're
doing nothing about it and going on, like, you can stay entangled
to a system that wants to essentially destroy you, to
control you. Why are you not trying to end your connection to
that, you know,
RC: yeah, exactly. So that's just got to take that first
step.
WW: Totally. And, you know, it is a step thing. I mean, I think
some people here you know, people in independent media, say
like, build a new system, exit and build and they just assume
like, Oh, I'll do that later and assume It's like not a gradual
thing, but you have to take small steps, whether it's an
abusive relationship, or, you know, trying to get off grid or
like off of the system in some way, you can't just do it all,
like, bam, overnight, right? You know, these are all things that
you have to take step towards, and people have to start doing
it at some point. So, you know, maybe talking about in this
context of both, you know, the parallels between how it works
in interpersonal relationships, and how it works at the Maker
level, and maybe it can help some people realize that by
looking at it in a different way, because personally, I
hadn't really noticed those parallels so much before. Um,
and I felt like it was helpful to me, it was sort of like an
eye opener, you know, for me, when I was like, reflecting on a
lot of this stuff, you know, a few weeks ago, and, you know,
hopefully it helps somebody else. And if it does, that would
be awesome.
RC: I learned plenty today, honestly, just listening to the
stories and stuff that I looked up beforehand. And yeah, so
thanks for setting this up. I appreciate it. I think it was
powerful.
WW: Yeah. Well, thanks, Ryan. And thanks for joining me. So,
everybody, thanks so much for listening, I really want to give
my deepest appreciation to people that support this podcast
and unlimited hangout. I know, I've not obviously been able to
put out much content at all, for the past 10 weeks or so, because
of, you know, the obvious circumstances. But man, I, I
just can't describe how grateful I am for that support during a
really difficult time. Because, you know, I don't, I don't have
support from my parents, I don't have support from my kid's
father. And, you know, it's really been, you know, you guys
that have really, you know, kept things going for me, and I just,
I can't think thank you guys enough. So hopefully, you
enjoyed this podcast, I know, it's a little different than,
you know, things I normally do. And for those that are
interested, after, you know, I sign off here with Ryan, I'll be
sharing a little bit more about, you know, what I mentioned in
the intro, you know, giving an honest answer to some of those
questions and talking about some of those things that are hard
for me to talk about, but ultimately made me who I am. And
you know, why I ended up doing what I do and why I care about
truth. And, you know, what's real at the end of the day, so
thank you, Brian. And thanks, everybody, for listening. All
right, for those of you still listening, this is the part
where I guess I get more personal than I've ever gotten,
since I have, you know, developed any sort of online
platform of significance. So, you know, I wanted to have the
focus of the discussion not be about me and my experience,
because I think there's, you know, as I talked about, with
Ryan, something much bigger to take away from all of this, but
like I said earlier, you know, for me, personally, I just don't
feel like I can, you know, continue living in a way where I
feel like, I am afraid of two people in particular in my
personal life, and it's not that I you know, I'm consciously
afraid of them all the time, but I've, you know, been held back
from sharing my experience, and, you know, answering questions
and interviews when I'm asked about my past, and, you know,
etc, etc. because I was worried about what they might do. And,
you know, the core of that is, you know, still being afraid of
them. And, as I've said, on, you know, numerous interviews, I
feel like when you have any sort of fear about somebody, you
know, they have power over you. And so, you know, this is, you
know, part of my, you know, attempt to not have to be a
factor in my life anymore. To be really open with people about,
you know, some of the, you know, the questions I've been asked in
the past, about, you know, why I do the work I do and why I care
about this stuff. And, you know, that I felt like I haven't
really been able to answer fully and, you know, on all them, you
know, other reasons that I sort of touched on earlier on in the
in the podcast, so I'm going to try and not have this run too
long, because this episode, I really got, you know, a little
on on the long side, but I'll you know, I'll do my best to get
the pertinent points across. So I grew up in Sarasota, Florida.
And my dad's a lawyer, my mom's a homemaker. And you know, I had
a lot of problems with my mom growing up. You know, I have a
sister who's about 14 months, exactly more or less 14 months
younger than me, so about a year apart. And you know, ever since
she was born, you'll see she had some we relatively minor health
problems I had to go to a lot of doctor's visits, though, but it
wasn't anything, you know, like what my son has had to go
through recently. And he, and my, my mom kind of used that as
an excuse to say that, you know, she couldn't handle two kids. So
I got, you know, she was overwhelmed by my daughter,
Civilis, she was overwhelmed by my sister having a lot of
doctor's appointments and being sort of sickly, at times, I
don't really remember my sister being that sick. But, you know,
definitely a few things here and there did happen. But, you know,
for various reasons, including that, and my mom saying that she
was stressed all the time, I was basically raised by my
grandparents, I got sent over there, probably at least once a
week, for a couple days, until I was, I don't know, probably like
10 or 11. And, you know, sometimes like summer vacation,
you know, for for months. And so, you know, I felt like, in a
lot of ways, I was raised just as much by them, if not my own
parents. But my mom in general, you know, when I was home, made
it very clear that she was a pretty withholding mother, I
guess, and, you know, wasn't trying to think of the right way
to put it, not really interested in me and made it really clear
that I was sort of like the odd man out, you know, and so that
kind of feeling I had from a very young age. And, you know,
sometimes it was really nasty. Like, I remember one time in the
car, when I was seven, my mom was telling me that if she knew
how I would have turned out, she would have made sure to not have
had me, you know, like, basically saying she would have
terminated them. My pregnancy, if she'd known how I'd turned
out later, and stuff like that kind of messed up stuff to say,
to a seven year old, but um, it got a lot worse for me around
the time I was 13 or so. And that basically happened because
my mom's brother, who, you know, my sister, and I loved and
thought he was a really lovely guy. You know, always really
fun, did nice things for us paid a lot of attention to us. He,
you know, I was having problems with my mom, because I started
dating a guy that she didn't like. And so she wanted me to
break up with him. And it was like my first love. So I like
didn't want to so we were clashing about that, I guess.
And somewhere in there, she called her brother and blamed
him for all the problems that she and I were having. And she
lied about the nature of bliss problems. So she didn't say that
it was because I was dating a guy or anything. She said it was
because I'd gotten into drugs, which was not true at all, at
the time. And little did I know that my uncle had previously had
drug and alcohol issues. And so she blamed him, you know, for
all of these things. And I don't know exactly the nature of the
conversation, because I didn't hear the conversation. But
shortly after it happened, my mom came and bragged about it to
me and bragged about how my uncle sobbed on the phone. And I
don't know, it didn't really make sense to me at the time. I
mean, I remember being just sort of like flabbergasted about why
my mom would make up something like that, and why she bragged
about making him upset. But I mean, if you if you know the
lady, she does kind of seem to get off sometimes on dragging
people down and then kicking them when they're down. And a
lot of stuff, you know, I remember from after this, and
before this, that, you know, she had complained a lot about how
how growing up, she felt like, you know, my grandma, her mother
paid more attention to him than to her and that her grandmother
had been the same way and that he'd been given all this
attention that she'd been denied and expressed a lot of anger and
jealousy about him. So I'm sure she probably picked on him all
the time. But anyway, this was the first time I'd ever heard
about it. And I thought it was weird. And I didn't get why she
would insert this, you know thing about drugs that didn't
happen. And I was like, How does that even relate to uncle, my
uncle because I didn't know about any of this stuff in his
past at the time either. But I found out about it, you know,
the next day and the day after, because after that, my mom had
made that phone call to him that you know, the next day he was
found dead had apparently killed himself. And you know, my mom
knew that I knew about the phone call. And obviously the only
other person besides me that knew about it was gone. So You
know, my mom, pretty clearly to me was, you know,
terrified, I guess that I would tell someone that, you know, and
they might believe me. And so, you know, my mom basically
started this big smear campaign about me, within the family, at
the church, my family went to among the parents of kids that
attended my school, and, you know, all of this stuff, saying
that I, I was crazy, I was a liar, I had all these behavioral
problems, I mean, just making up a whole bunch of making up a
whole bunch of stuff that that wasn't true. And, you know, I
did kind of try and, you know, after a year of that did act
out, because it was really unfair. And, you know, my mom
did a lot of other things to try and isolate me, you know, she
grounded me all the time, she wouldn't let me have friends
outside of school, like I kind of go over to anyone's house
ever. And a lot of, but she'd let my you know, my sister go
out and do stuff. And my dad was working all the time. So a lot
of times, I was alone, with her at the house, and she just did
really crazy stuff, stuff that was really psychologically
disturbing. She didn't let me have any privacy. I mean, she
even took the locks off of the bathroom door that I use, so
that she could like scream at me when I'm using the bathroom. And
like all of this stuff, that just, I mean, it seems so crazy
in retrospect, but at the time, I mean, it was obviously it was
obviously awful. And, you know, she basically made it her, or
her mission to make me terrified of her, um, you know, which she
kind of didn't succeed in doing for a time. But you know, I
wasn't going to tell anybody anyway, just because I was
really close with my grandparents, her parents, my
uncle's parents, who, because I just seen how devastated they
were after my uncle died. And I didn't want to cause them any
more suffering. And I did try and tell some people I tried to
tell my dad at one point. He doesn't remember that happening.
But you know, now he believes me, after I told them, you know,
more recently, because, you know, everyone knows how my mom
is at this point. And I told another person in the family
that later on became sort of like a caretaker to my my
grandparents. And, you know, she basically swore me to secrecy
and said, not to tell them not to tell anybody until after my
grandparents passed away, that they wouldn't be able to handle
it. And so, you know, my mom obviously didn't know about
that. So she was, you know, trying to pursue her own tactics
to make sure I didn't talk. And, you know, my sister didn't know,
I've offered to tell her, but she's basically told me she
doesn't, doesn't want to know. But, um, you know, I've pretty
much been carrying on a really unpleasant secret for a really
long time. My grandparents died on. I guess, back in stage, it
was 2018. So it's, it's been a few years. And, you know, I've
still sort of been keeping the secret, I guess, but not
intentionally, just because, you know, I don't, I don't like
talking about it. It was a really awful experience. My mom
was essentially trying to ruin my life, trying to get me to
kill myself, like my uncle killed himself, you know, would
guide me on about that stuff and how I shouldn't be here. And,
you know, everything about me was awful. And, you know, just a
lot of just a lot of really painful memories that I don't
really like to look back on and discuss. And so, you know, one
of the reasons that I care so much about the work that I do is
that, you know, for for several years, I felt like nobody
believed me about what was going on with my mom. I had one lady
that did, I started from all the stress of everything going on at
home. I started having like a neurological problems, like some
form of epilepsy, but it was completely stress related. And
so I got sent to a neurologist who then referred me to some
specialist lady that was like a neurologist psychologists, you
know, had both of those specialties. And you know, that
that lady knew what was going on. And she probably saved my
life to be honest, because my mom wasn't going to let me leave
the house. So I tried to leave as soon as I turned 18. And, you
know, was complicated. So, you know, I couldn't. And then I
tried, I found one place I could stay, but it ended up only being
for a week. And, you know, it was, it was a complicated time.
But anyway, this lady wrote a letter to the college I got
accepted to. And they let me apply for college and financial
aid as an independent, so I was able to, you know, still go to
college and not have to worry about having to stay stuck at my
parents house indefinitely, until my mom approved me going
to college, if I acquiesced to, you know, various demands that I
wasn't interested in him meeting. So, you know, sorry, I
got off on a tangent there. But basically, the reason I care a
lot about what I do is because I got smeared all the time, I only
had one adult, believe me, and I didn't meet that person until I
was like, 18, and my uncle died when I was 13. So I had several
years of being the only person that really knew the truth,
right. And, you know, being surrounded by lies, and, you
know, obviously, when you're in a situation like that, it makes
you care about the truth, an awful lot. And it makes you
realize that it's, it's really important, even if you're the
only person that knows that it's the truth. You know, I mean, it
can be lonely sometimes, you know, whether it's, you know,
something personal, like what I'm talking about, or, you know,
being too early in realizing that certain, quote, unquote,
conspiracy theories are true. You know, I think because of a
lot of a lot of my experiences growing up, you know, I really
didn't trust authority at all, and so I guess, maybe it was
easier for me to see, than most people that the government lies
all the time. And, you know, to not necessarily believe people
in power, because, you know, if it's to their benefit, or they
have something to cover up, they'll lie, even if they're the
people that are supposed to care about, you know, about you more
than anyone else in the world. Right. So, you know, but, you
know, realizing that stuff, pretty young, you know, for me,
I was in college about 21, or 20 years old, I'm 33 now that it
was really lonely, then, now, definitely, less so. Right. And
the same thing for my personal life, you know, everyone in my
family knows that, what my mom is capable of now, because once
I left home, it got directed and other people and now she's more
or less run out of people to, to target at this point. So you
know, it can be it can be really lonely, to fight for the truth.
And, you know, I guess, even though it was really hard and
lonely, as a teenager, you know, I am proud that I never gave in
to that, and always tried to tell people when it really
happened, that I wasn't that I wasn't lying about all this
stuff, and that I wasn't crazy in all of these things. But, you
know, it's not exactly what I want to talk about in
interviews, when I guess that get asked about it. So, you
know, I guess from now on, I'll probably just refer people to
this podcast, so I don't have to keep having to keep talking
about it. Anyway, so I ended up going to college, and you know,
or pretty much broke off ties with my family, I'd still take
calls from my grandparents who I cared about a lot, but they
always tried to get me you know, back talking to my mom trying to
convince me you know, she wasn't the way I knew she was and I was
trying to protect them from knowing how she was right. So
you know, it was hard to really have much contact with my family
for a long time and I really didn't have any contact with
them at all until I was I don't know about the time my daughter
was born was just, you know, the end of 2017
So anyway, I went to college I didn't have a great social
experience there either because I was really after growing up
around my mom really tired of some this superficial fake stuff
because you know her, you know, false self like, you know, this
podcast has been talking about was projecting sort of this
superficial social, I mean, a lot of people around Catella was
fake. I heard people comment on that on occasion, but you know,
it was this kind of like larger than life social personnel.
Lydian partying and all of this stuff. And I was really turned
off from that in college and the college I went to was full of
mostly rich kids, and I was probably the only one there that
was on like 100% financial aid and didn't really have money to
spend on, you know, whatever. So, you know, it's definitely
kind of a black sheep there, for sure. I mean, I did get, you
know, didn't take a lot of great courses. And I learned a lot on
the academic side of it, had to do a ton of writing, which
obviously has helped me now. And that's probably why I can, you
know, write relatively complex pieces pretty quickly, because I
had to do a lot of that in college, like, the school I went
to was really writing intensive, I guess. But anyway, you know, I
just got really fed up with how things had played out for me,
and I sort of blamed a lot of it on, you know, stuff I noticed
culturally about the US, I just assumed, because of all the
people who'd been around really my whole life that pretty much
everyone in the US was, you know, superficial like that and
cared about all this fake stuff. And nothing was really real,
there was no, there was nothing like authentic is how I felt a
lot of the time. And, you know, around the same time, I also
started getting really sick. And I went to I tried to go to a
couple doctors, and they were like, you're fine. There's
nothing wrong with you. And I, like knew something was wrong
with me. So, you know, I got to a point where I was so
miserable. I was like, Well, I can either stay here and be
miserable and probably, you know, stop at wanting to live
for real. And do the thing I promised myself I would never
do. You know, which, because I felt like it was like letting my
my mom win. Or I, you know, I go somewhere else and live a
totally new life. And so that's when I decided to move to move
to South America, I sold the little stuff that I had. And I,
you know, just pretty much left everything behind. And I went to
live and work in Peru, I worked on a farm in the middle of
nowhere. But the closest major city in Peru was Cusco, where
Machu Picchu is for those that don't know much about Peru. And
you know, I worked there for a while and helps a lot with the,
the issue I was having, which was mainly digestive related.
But I you know, it took me a couple years to figure out
exactly what was going on. But, you know, I had, there was no
electricity where I was working, you know, there was a generator,
but it was turned on once a week. And you know, it was a lot
of hard manual labor and stuff. But you know, I feel like it was
pretty good for me. But eventually I ended up butting
heads with the lady that ran it even though we got on cut along
a lot. But you know, she'd been isolated for like many years up
there on this mountaintop and was kind of ornery and developed
a drinking problem and it was just really hard to to stay
there. And so you know, I ended up leaving and going to Cusco
because I didn't have any money really to go back to the US I
mean Peruvian currency and doesn't isn't worth as much at
least it wasn't then as the as the dollar. So I definitely
couldn't afford to go back to the States. So I worked in Cusco
and food service for a couple of years. And you know, I made some
friends and life was all right. Until this one week when you
know, everyone was busy and I didn't know what else to do. So
I went for a walk on this, this park that wasn't probably like,
you know, five minutes from my house up hill. And you know, I'd
been there before and stuff but you know, this time, I shouldn't
have gotten there alone and I was sexually assaulted by a
Peruvian guy. And it was probably the only time in my
life where I really felt like I was gonna die. But you know,
thankfully I did it. And you know, made it out alive but
obviously traumatized from the experience and I decided, you
know it, I was still going to be stubborn and try and stay in
Cusco but then the guy that did it, found out where I lived and
was like walking in the area where I lived and that was
really unsettling to me. And so my best friend at the time at
the restaurant I worked at was a Chilean guy and he said you know
she likes not like this. Why don't you come try and give
Chile a chance. And you know I did he introduced me to one of
his friends from college that also had done you know farm
management stuff in the past and you know he connected on Some
said maybe he can help you find something to do. And, you know,
that's how I ended up in Chile. So once I got to Chile, things
were rough for the first two years for me economically, even
though Chile was definitely a much better, safer place to live
than Peru. And once I started writing, I was able to at least
make enough income to live off of, I started writing as a
profession about two years after I got here. So that's around
like, the last half of 2016. And roughly a year later, my
daughter was born. And during my pregnancy, her dad got involved
with this new agey religion that I wasn't interested in being a
part of, and things for us got progressively more complicated,
and also progressively more unequal to the point where I was
pulling way too much weight in terms of my domestic workload.
You know, I was doing pretty much 100% of childcare, I was
also the breadwinner, winter and there was a lot of inequality in
our relationship and really, no way to communicate about these
things effectively. And on top of that, these, you know,
spiritual differences made it really hard to continue in that
relationship. And so I ended it around the time my daughter
turned two, and a few months later, you know, the whole world
turned upside down with COVID. And my last child care pretty
abruptly and not long after that. The really intense
lockdowns in Chile started which honestly were a lot more extreme
than the lockdowns implemented in most parts of the West. And
I've talked about this on, you know, past interviews, and in a
previous podcast. So I was already before all of this
feeling, kind of overwhelmed with work. And you know, with
COVID happening, work was even crazier for me, because, you
know, there was so much going on. And it seemed like I had to
research so much and urgently because so much enormous stuff
was happening globally, every day, and everyone was trying to
scramble to figure out, like, what's going on what's going to
happen next, you know, and so on. And then on, you know, on
top of that, I had to juggle, you know, trying to write and
produce all this stuff with zero child care. And, you know,
trying to write why a spunky two year old is in the house with
me, and, you know, we can't go anywhere, because everything's
locked down. So after about six months of this, I started
talking to the guy who was alluded to earlier in this
podcast, who is my son's father. So after asking me a lot of
questions about who, you know, myself, and about my life, he
framed himself as being the perfect complement to everything
I lacked at the time, and really is the polar opposite of my
daughter's father, you know, promising he would never be like
him, talking about how great he was with kids, how he would
offer exactly the relief that honestly, at that point in time,
I was really desperate for. And I think, in retrospect, if I
hadn't been so worn down and desperate and isolated, I would
have thought a lot more about the situation, before inviting
him down to visit us in Chile, or, or, you know, may not have
even done it at all. But I was and in this period, you know, I
can find it a lot in him. I told them a lot about my past my
parents how all that had affected me things that had
happened, you know, after I left home, and he acted like he was
really empathetic, really cared, that he thought I was so
wonderful, and that we shared the strong connection. And there
was this, you know, element of destiny to the whole thing. And
so he came down at the end of 2020. And, you know, for the
time he was here, it was really nice for both me and my
daughter, because, you know, we finally weren't alone.
And, but during this time to you know, he would talk constantly
about how I had to get away from Chile, I needed to escape,
things were only going to get worse and worse. The people were
awful. Everything about it was awful, and you know, made me
feel really afraid to stay over time. And he also told me that
his country, the United Kingdom, you know that things were in as
bad as they were in Chile, that my daughter could go to daycare
over there, things were still open and life would be better.
And, you know, when I agreed to go with him to check it out, he
told me things like Oh, I feel like I'm saving you. You know,
since he essentially made it clear that he felt that like if
I stayed in Chile, it was essentially a death sentence for
me and my daughter. And you know, the exact day I left my
home and was due to fly out of Santiago, which is to lace
capital in about nine hours north by car from where I had
been living. That's when everything started to change.
And of course it's right when I basically given up a lot of my
independence in my life. You know for him and you know that
night we were staying in an airport hotel, and I had said
something, I can't really remember exactly the words, but
I know, I was basically angling for some sort of show of
emotional support from him. Because I was I was feeling, you
know, jittery and insecure about having left everything behind
for, you know, an indefinite period to go somewhere new, you
know, with my kid until and, you know, it was just, you know, was
I basically just wanted a hug, you know, and whatever I said,
you know, elicited the complete opposite type of response I had
been hoping for, and instead, I got just this explosion of
aggression, verbal abuse, just telling me what a garbage person
I was, and just telling me, you know, since it was all directed
at me about how I'm awful, you know, and I tried to de escalate
it, I was really taken aback that what I had said, had, you
know, provoked this response, and there was just no way to
convince him to stop. You know, I was like, trying to do
anything to get, you know, saying, like, Let's calm down,
you can, we can talk about what's upset you when we're both
more calm, and like, let's not do it this way. We're traveling
and all this stuff, and none of it worked. And you know, it, you
know, I got really upset, obviously, because it went on
for like, a really long time. And it was at a time where I
felt really vulnerable to and, you know, I couldn't, we
couldn't even talk afterwards, I was, I was so upset. And then
afterwards, you know, he gave me you know, a hug, but he did
apologize, and then started blaming my stress for his
outburst. And, you know, I tried to rationally this, rationalize
this and some similar outbursts, and, you know, weird behavior
that happened during the rest of the trip to the UK, as him just
being stressed by traveling, or maybe he felt a lot of pressure
about being responsible for, you know, us now, because he'd been
a bachelor for so long or something, you know, but, you
know, over time, it became pretty clear that that wasn't
the case. So, you know, once we got in the UK, you know, it was
true that I could take my daughter to a daycare, but
pretty much everything else was closed, and where he was living
was not as accommodating for us, as he had described. And it was
also, you know, pretty much impossible to rent anything else
anywhere, because he didn't really have an income or like
papers to show to justify renting. And I'm been living in
Chile for a long time. So I don't have that either. And, you
know, like, even though the lockdowns in the UK, I don't,
you know, they weren't as bad as Chile is the situation there was
still really unpleasant, and I wasn't really sure I wanted to
stay long term. And, you know, which is what he had hoped for.
And it was pretty clear that he was really bothered and stressed
by the fact that I, I didn't really seem to like it in the UK
more. And, you know, during this, this time, when we first
got there, I also learned that my Chilean bank accounts didn't
work in the UK. So I started having to send my money to his
bank account, which he would then use to pay for things over
there. And that was the start of a very unfortunate, slippery
slope that eventually led me to not having control over my
money. You know, what it was spin on. It was time, you know,
I couldn't buy anything without him knowing about it. And a
couple of weeks after we arrived, I got pregnant. And
from that point on, things started to go dramatically
downhill. And some months later, you know, he said something
about if I hadn't gotten pregnant with my son, he was
afraid that I would have just gone back to Chile. And so, you
know, there's a part of me that thinks maybe he wanted me to
have a baby to keep me in the UK, because, I mean, he knew in
detail how hard it had been, for me, you know, back in Chile, to
to juggle one kid on my own as a single mom. And, you know, I
guess he might have known, I would have been much less likely
to leave if I meant having to, but you know, I don't really
know for sure, but, you know, definitely something I've
thought about. So my, my second pregnancy was really, really
difficult compared to my first especially for the first couple
of months, it was a lot of puking. I felt sick all the
time. I had really low energy and brain fog, but I had to try
and keep working. And a big part of that was because the UK is
just so much more expensive than Chile, that I really couldn't
afford not to work and, you know, he had no income he was
contributed, contributing very occasionally to my site. And so,
you know, it's my income anyway. So, you know, I was paying for
all of our shared expenses and Honestly, who knows what else
because I didn't have access to his bank statements. And you
know, he treated any attempt on my part to look at those
statements is me not trusting Him enough and became a big
argument that, you know, being super sick and from pregnancy
and all that I didn't really want to want to have. And, you
know, it was during this time that this, there was a pattern
of abuse that started to emerge, he would say that I was
emotionally disconnected from him. And he would get really
angry and be really aggressive and nasty. And he went on, let
me deescalate the situation or let me have any boundaries. And
he would keep going and pushing and pushing and pushing, until I
would break down, at which point, he gives me a hug, act
like he was empathetic again, and then tell me that, oh, how
good it was that I was now showing an emotional response
and that I was connecting again. And so you know, in reality, I
wasn't disconnected, I was just feeling really ill from
pregnancy, a poorly supported by my partner, because I was also
doing all the domestic stuff still, like cleaning and laundry
and all that stuff, you know, doing that solo, and I was also
without a support network outside of him, because I had,
you know, just arrived to a foreign country where he was the
only person I knew. So you know, but what he was doing here was
trying to push me to react so that when I'd cry and break
down, he'd not only reward me with the affection I wanted, and
which he would normally withhold. But he would also tell
me that, you know, me crying, after he would explode like this
was a sign that I had severe depression, and that I was
mentally ill. And I needed to lean more on him and listen to
him more, and do things the way he wanted. And, you know, he
tried to give me the impression that only he knew how to help
me. And, you know, I was already totally isolated by being over
there. So, you know, I didn't really have anyone else to help
me anyway. And it was clear to me pretty quickly that the
things that would set him off or anger him just made no sense
most of the time, and it left me walking on eggshells really
quickly. So one of the biggest early explosions came after a
night where I had tried to turn on white noise to block out his
really loud snoring, he had a cold at the time. And, you know,
I'd known people in college and you know, in high school, even
that it used like white noise machines to sleep better or
block out noise like in their houses or in, in dorms. And I
thought it was like a normal thing. But after like two
minutes, he woke up, he was really angry and started
accusing me of trying to hurt him, and trying to torture him.
And he went on like this, not just that night, but like for
for several days. And he even went so far as to accuse me of
trying to use CIA MK Ultra torture tactics and denied
the fact that I could have not known how much this would upset
him and how awful it was to turn white noise on to block out his
snoring. And I, you know, I don't know a lot of these freak
outs, you know, they happened in front of my, in front of my
three year old daughter, including one time he over this
white noise thing, he threatened to kill himself, he said I was
trying to kill him. And like all these horrible nasty things you
would never say in front of a child, especially one that
young, and, you know, after this, there would be you know,
there would be these explosions like that, and then there'd be
lols, you know, but the whole experience on top of being ill
pregnant and no longer in control of my own finances, left
me feeling trapped. And, you know, I felt that way pretty
quickly. And that was really hard because I'd had that same
sensation living at my parents house as a as a teen with my
mom, except that this time, my daughter was trapped with me
too. And, you know, by this point, pretty much all the
positive aspects of the relationship that had been there
at the beginning, had had disappeared and, you know, even
in conversations in conversations, he would
constantly just talk about himself what he was researching
what he wanted to do what he needed. And, you know, anytime I
tried to contribute to the conversation, he just looked at
me like with disdain, like I was irritating like I was meddling
in his conversation or I was saying something stupid. Unless
you know, I was telling him that he'd done something well or you
know, was stroking his ego so it just left me feeling really, you
know, belittle like, like nothing. And you know, it was
also during this time I found out that um, And what he had
said about the ease of getting residency in the UK was also
false. And so of course, I needed residency to get a bank
account and regain my independence over my finances.
And because he had not told me some things I needed to know,
when I came into the country by this point, I realized when I
went to look into it myself that the only way I was going to be
able to get residency was if I married him and pursued a
spousal visa. And he had, of course, been pushing for that as
well. But given how things had been playing out, I like really
did not want that. So about a month and a half, before I ended
up leaving the UK, and I was there, probably about six months
in total, we were traveling to London, and he got really
stressed during the trip and had this, you know, same type of
huge explosion in our hotel room again in front of my daughter.
And it was just awful. I mean, it was like two to three full
hours, if not more being screamed at. And, you know, I
took my daughter and went down to reception after a while while
I think he stormed out of the room, and then I didn't want to
stay there for him to come back. And so I bought a separate hotel
room for me and my daughter. So she could at least sleep because
I didn't know how he'd be if he came back. And was just really,
you know, unsettled, obviously. And, you know, I told him, We
were staying in a separate room, and he texted me and he said he
was leaving, he was going to go back to Cardiff, just hours from
London where we were living. And so that means he left me and my
daughter all alone in London with no money, I'd spent my cash
on a hotel room trying to get space somehow to try and
deescalate stuff. And, you know, I contacted, I didn't know
anyone in London or the UK. I mean, I tried to contact people
through work, desperately trying to find a way to sort of fix
this really messed up situation. But you know, around five or
six, and he texted me saying he was back to let them know what
room we were in. And now than we hired him a car to drive us back
to Cardiff and canceled all the the plans that led us to go to
London in the first place. And you know, after this explosion,
he was able to recognize he had been wrong when he promised to
go to therapy. But then when push came to shove, he didn't
want to find a therapist. It's kind of dragging his feet. So I
tried to set him up with one that a friend had recommended.
And he said the first session went really well and did really
great. And then after that, you know, she he said she turned out
to be crazy and was doing all this weird stuff and didn't want
to go back. And you know, it was all my fault that it had gotten
weird, but I've never worked with the lady. I was just, you
know, trying to find somebody to help them since he wasn't going
to do it himself, I guess. And, you know, I also later reached
out to her and asked if she had done what he had accused her of.
And she said she hadn't. But you know, I don't really know. I
just know that he decided I had been so wrong and awful to have
recommended her. And every time I mentioned after that, that he
should consider therapy again, he would angrily bring this lady
up as a way to shut down the conversation. So after this
event and a few other blow ups that were slightly minor than
that one, I started having concerns about my daughter's
peer group at her daycare. She was with, you know, other kids
her age. So other three to four year olds, and one of the girls
her age and this girl's brother, were apparently pulling on the
pants of other kids and like touching their underwear,
underwear and they called it the nappy or diaper game. And I
didn't really like that my daughter had tried to play this
game at home with me. And there were some other things going on.
That I had noticed, you know, my daughter's behavior reflecting,
you know, from the school and I was like, You know what, I think
I'm gonna try and put her somewhere else. And there was
this other school closer to where we lived. And there were
some neighbors who had their kids there instead, it was
really good. So it's just kind of seemed logical, you know? So
he said he would do that for me, because I had a lot going on,
and he would enroll her there. And, you know, after a few days,
he said, I asked, you know, so is she going to go? Have you
heard from them. And he said he hadn't gotten a response to the
first email he'd sent. So I asked if, you know if he was
going to do it, if he could just walk down to the school, it was
like less than five blocks away and talk to somebody in person
so I could get my daughter back in childcare, you know, sort of
paying for sitters hourly, it's like a big cost difference, you
know. So anyway, his response to that was that he would send them
an email that they wouldn't ignore. And so it turned out
that that email he had sent said that we needed immediate Child
Care because my daughter had had to leave her other daycare due
to a, quote, sexual situation. And the new daycare did respond
immediately to that. But they asked for more details. And he
essentially told them that the previous daycare had not just
allowed but had instigated and promote that the children their
touch each other's private parts, and that this was the
nappy game. And so the new daycare quickly involved, the
police and social services and a complaint in investment was
filed and investigation was opened against the old daycare
based on a warps narrative that did not fit at all what had
originally prompted me to take my daughter out of school,
because as far as what my daughter had told me, and what I
had observed, this was two kids at the peer group doing this
without any sort of sanctioning from the daycare itself. So
instead of owning up to the fact that he had kids that
exaggerated the situation, he doubled down and basically
decided to accuse my daughter's old daycare of being a pedophile
and grooming enablers without evidence for it, and just
totally lost it when I didn't want to lawyer up and go nuclear
when we didn't have evidence for allegations he had made via
email. Because, you know, courts a little different than just
blogging or publishing stuff online. So or on Twitter, you
know, so to make what he felt he could use as an evidence, he got
my daughter after several coached attempts to say on
camera, a version of events that more closely supported his
narrative. And he said that I had to support this, or I too,
you know, was a pedo enabler, and I wasn't protecting my own
daughter from paedos. And, you know, all of this stuff, and I
was already pretty worn down by that time anyway. So um, so
Social Services launched an investigation into my daughter's
previous daycare, and they came up with nothing. So they dropped
by our house unexpectedly one day and spoke to him one on one,
and then to my daughter, one on one, and then they interviewed
me with my daughter. And when I hadn't said to them what he had
wanted me to say to them, because he was apparently
listening outside the room, we were in a he just completely
exploded at them and me, and he yelled, and yelled, and kicked
them out of the house. And a day later, one of the social
services people who had been there contacted me by phone,
because she asked for it when she had interviewed me at the
house. And she asked to speak to me because she and the other
girl had noticed that my three year old didn't react at all,
and he had his meltdown leading them rightfully, to believe that
this happened regularly in front of her. And I did speak to this
lady afterwards, because, you know, by this point, I felt not
just completely trapped. But I felt like this situation that
had been created over my daughter's, you know, daycare,
was just spiraling out of control and could potentially
turn into major legal trouble and just was getting worse and
worse, and all the complete refusal on his part to take any
accountability, or have like, just no ability to de escalate
at all, which he you know, shown numerous times before this, it
just made it clear that this was not a sustainable situation.
And, you know, I had to get out of it. And, you know, not to
mention the fact that I was just completely miserable, and had
really started to become scared of him when he was angry,
because it's not like it got any better, you know, it just got
worse and more aggressive and constant, you know, over time.
And it was just, I'd never been scared like that and it
relationship before. And so to make a long story, short social
services, ended up coming by a few times, and I don't tend to
our relationship more and reach the conclusion that if I didn't
leave him in the UK, by extension, because to stay
there, I'd have to marry him. They would plan to take my
daughter and my son once he was born into protective protective
custody because of my ex's behavior, and it's obviously an
unacceptable outcome. So I obviously had to go. And the
problem was that I didn't have money to buy a plane ticket,
because I would have to go through him to access my money.
And then he would know I was leaving. And I was scared to
tell him I was going to leave because of everything that he
had done to try and keep me there. And thankfully, you know,
a couple of friends intervene. I bought my plane ticket. And I
told my ex I had to go back to Chile because I was worried
about the social services stuff, and I didn't have any other
options. And he said he was planning to sue social services
and that I could come back when he won. And I told him I would
so he acquiesced and I was just, I was just terrified of a
confrontation of him and me alone in the house about me
leaving because I wanted To him didn't want to be with him
anymore. I just felt like I was too scared to do that, at the
time. So in in late August of 2021, I got, I got back to Chile
after all of this, and my son was born about four months later
at the end of December. And in that time, you know, I did tell
my ex from a safe distance that I have left to get away from
him, and I, you know, how I really felt about my experience
over there. But shortly before my my son was born, he claimed
that he knew that he had been wrong, that it had been his
anxiety, that his decade long use of Prozac and some dosing
problem with another medication he took daily, were to blame.
And that if he sorted it out, those things out, you know,
everything would be the way it was meant to be. It wasn't him,
it was the meds, right. And after a few months of grappling
with a newborn baby into four year old while also trying to
rebuild my life and Chile and having a book deadline for you
know, my book that came out last year, I gave him another chance
and received him here again, and in Chile, because I wasn't going
to leave here, you know, I didn't want to lose my financial
independence again, on and, you know, not unlike the time we had
spent in the UK, it was just a disaster, and more of the same.
He was constantly trying to bully me into leave into leaving
Chile again. And all I was saying is that I can't commit to
a move right now, because I just had a baby, I have this book
deadline, you know, wait till the end of the year. And, you
know, that wasn't even enough. So I sent him home like less
than three months later. But again, I got, you know, it was
winter. And it was I got bogged down and overwhelmed by trying
to juggle the kids, my looming book deadline on top of regular
work maintaining a household by myself. And, you know, also
after years of being told that absolutely everything and the
relationship that had ever happened was my fault. I thought
if I could just try my absolute hardest in the relationship than
it could work. And I think a lot of my reasoning here was
partially relate related to stress. And partially related to
this strategy that's detailed earlier in this podcast, bread
crumbing, where a narcissist can have fleeting moments where it
seems like they're rational or willing to take accountability
for something, which makes you think they can be reasoned with,
in that you just had to do everything they asked you. And
then things can work out, you know, and I think a lot of it
too, was just the emotional pain of not wanting to be a single
mother forever and wanting my son to have a father, you know,
like, I felt like I had to give him as big a chance as I could
for things to work out. Because, you know, once, once you're a
single mom with two kids, it's not like, you know, two kids
with two different dads, it's not like you can ever expect to
date again. So, you know, I felt like I had to be completely sure
about him. And, you know, since narcissists are so good at
sowing doubt, playing on your empathy and emotions, you know,
I felt like I could, you know, maybe it was, I could do things
that would make it better. And it would turn out different this
time, you know, and, I mean, I really should have known for my
experiences at this point that that's not how it was. But
anyway, he came back last September, about a year ago. And
things were mostly, you know, they were better than they'd
been before, at least, you know, and they were manageable until,
I guess, early January. And in early January, my daughter had
gone to her father's house, and told him that my ex had been
hitting her when I wasn't around, and her dad had told me
about it by phone, and I told my ex about it. And all three of us
felt that she had probably set it for attention because she
hadn't seen her dad in a while, because he'd been kind of
unavailable. So my daughter did get in trouble for not telling
the truth. And you know, you know, also for telling a lie
that could have serious repercussions. But honestly, my
ex just went so far beyond and punishing her to the point that
he became like obsessed with punishing her, and was doing
things like isolating her and not letting her play or interact
with her brother not letting her talk to me about what she was
coloring or doing or thinking are just normal things having
panic attacks and anxiety attacks because she might be
naughty during the weekend and all of this extreme stuff. From
the time my daughter said this to her dad, which was early
January. It went on until the end of March when I kicked out
my ex for the last time so that's almost three months of
this going on every day at home. I had a sitter quit over it
because it was just so extreme and during that time, I want to
he wouldn't let me have a saying and how He treated her, I
couldn't say anything about it at all without risking a giant
explosive fight. And in public, I mean, it was obviously a
different story, because he portrayed himself as super
stepdad. And, you know, but even people I know really well, here
that knew him too, they can tell that something weird was going
on between him and my daughter. And, you know, when I did break
up, did break up with him. And, you know, it was about my
daughter, it was about how he was treating me. He was the
reason he gave us to why I shouldn't break up with him
didn't have anything to do with wanting to be in a relationship
with me, or caring about me or caring about his son, it was
about how my relationship was his, quote, chance to make it an
independent media. So he essentially admitted that he'd
been using me, you know, honestly, probably had been from
the beginning. And, you know, given what I experienced with my
mom after my uncle's death, and how the, the abuse with her
escalated, when she was afraid that I was going to out her for
what she had done. To my uncle, you know, part of me worries
that maybe that's what my ex had been doing with my daughter, and
maybe she hadn't been lying to her dad, but I'll honestly, you
know, that's something I'll, I'll never know, because I'm not
going to ask bring it up to her again, you know, like this whole
to be behind us. But you know, as far as you know, relates to
my accent, you know, I did eventually put my foot down, and
I sent him away, because I could see history repeating itself, I
felt like my daughter was starting to relive, you know, my
childhood, I could see, you know, what she was experiencing,
it was just like watching four year old five year old me, you
know, and I just did not want that for her at all. Because I
just know how, how painful it is. And I feel like my most
important job as a parent is to stop that, that cycle of abuse
from continuing, and I am honestly embarrassed and ashamed
to talk about it, because I can't, you know, it's
embarrassing and awful, that it took me three months to do
something about it, I should have done something way sooner.
But you know, you know, you haven't been in a relationship
with a narcissist, and maybe you don't, but relationships like
that are really hard to break away from, they reduce you down
to almost nothing. They fill you with self doubt, it leaves you
weak, you know, like paralyzed in a sense. And I guess if I can
think of one positive thing from having to live that experience,
it's that I understand my, my dad a lot better. Because, you
know, for a long time, I never understood why he didn't leave a
relationship where someone treated him poorly, and where he
was miserable, and his kids were miserable. But you know,
I was him in my last relationship, especially those
last three months. So you know, at least least I understand him
a little more. So I'm so here I've tried to give, you know, as
succinct summary as I can really about my experiences with
narcissists, how it's affected me and my family in the long
struggle that I've had as a result with self esteem, with
boundaries to stick up for myself, and how important the
truth is, because, you know, like I said earlier, you know, I
got, I basically had my mom launched a giant smear campaign
against me when I was a teen. And that sort of repeat has
repeated itself while my son has been in the hospital with my x
and my my son's father, who couldn't even be bothered to ask
how he could help or support his extremely sick child, and who
fundraised off of my son's condition acting like he was
involved with us when he wasn't, and I had no intention to send
any of that money here, spent his time privately smearing me
behind my back to work colleagues, people I've worked
closely with contributors to my site, people I've co written
articles with, and people he knew were supporting my site,
via my website and so on, while publicly taking credit for work
he didn't actually do on my book and using it to promote his new
website, and then also trying to create the public impression
that we were still together, because it benefited him. And
because he knows I don't like drama, and I don't like
conflict, and that I was unlikely to say anything about
it. But I did say something about it on Twitter, eventually
to set things straight that he wasn't involved. And since then,
he's made it very clear that he plans to put out some sort have
crazy hit piece on me or whatever. And I honestly don't
want to live with fear or worry about what the what this guy
what his narrative is about me now or what he has to say about
me, I just want to move on and spend time healing with my kids
and not giving him any thought. So, you know, if you happen to
care, I've left supporting evidence for what I've said
about this in the show notes. But this is the first and only
time I plan on speaking about you really any of this stuff
because as I said before, I'm talking about this now to heal.
I'm not planning on talking about it again. And in the
event. You know, that me having told my story helps someone
realize that they're in abusive relationship or had, you know,
an experience similar to mine, you know, if it helps them then
it's worth it to so. You know, thanks for taking the time to
listen to me and my story.