[Music]
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Phantom Power Business Hour. Today is Monday the 19th.
We're a little late getting this one out. I would have loved to have had it out in the morning,
but I was flying back from Phoenix and back in Nashville. It's Monday afternoon. I'll have
this one up this afternoon. I was out at Culture Shock in Phoenix over the weekend down at Sam
Means Place and I just cannot say enough wonderful things about the experience that I had this weekend.
I want to thank Quiet Warrior, Santos, Eric, Heather Larson, Heidi,
Arcanox, Santos, just everybody that I met down there. It was such an amazing event talking
about Noster, talking about Bitcoin, talking about music, getting a chance to see Sarah Jade perform,
meeting her, meeting her husband. It was a small crew, but man, it was mighty and it is such a
great indication of where this entire movement is going. I learned a lot, made some new friends,
stuffed my face with some amazing Mexican food, especially from Heidi. Thank you very much,
as well as in an out burger. Rather content being back here in Nashville now,
and ready to get back to work. What you're about to hear is a conversation that I had yesterday
morning, Sunday morning with Sam Means from Wave Lake and Open Mike from First Avenue. As you
guys know, they are obviously at the forefront. They are way the hell in front of me with respect to
what's going on with music and value for value. Sam has just such a great history in the industry,
but more importantly, he's got a hell of a big heart and his head and his heart are absolutely in
the right place with respect to where Wave Lake is going. Open Mike, I can't say enough about Open Mike,
either. Everything that he did and set up those shows in Minneapolis in December to his work with
Tunster, to his work with Noster and just being a Bitcoin evangelist and just being underneath the
radar. As far as independent musicians go, "My God, you can't have a better friend than this dude."
The guy works for independent venues. You're going to hear this conversation between the three of us
and you're going to hear planes flying overhead on approach into the Phoenix Airport.
We rushed in and rushed out, but I want to thank Sam for hosting us and letting us come in
and bum rush his office and make a quick recording before we all had to head out.
So this is a fun conversation with me, Mike, and Sam, and I really hope you guys enjoy it.
I love these guys, dearly. I love where this movement is going and I'm so thankful for it.
So here is myself, Sam from Wave Lake and Open Mike talking about not only the event this
past weekend, but value for value and the music industry. Here we go.
All right. Welcome to Phantom Power Business Hour. It is Sunday the 18th.
of February and we are in Phoenix and I am really lucky to be joined by Sam Means
from Wave Lake and Open Mike from First Avenue. We had a great day yesterday here at Noster.
Noster, what did they call it? What'd you get? Culture shot. Culture shot. Yeah, I'm getting old.
I forget things that were I was staring at. It was a little bit of an obscure title, but that was the
point. It was a really marvelous event. It was so fun. It went off without a hitch. Everyone did great.
Yeah. Sarah Jade was there. She played some music and it was incredible. Yeah, nice little set.
You and I, Sam had a nice conversation and I was fortunate enough to interview Sarah for a
couple of minutes. Mike, I loved hearing what you were talking about yesterday with Sam with
respect to the industry and you know, I, we've got a little bit of time. I know because Mike, you
got to get on a flight here and this podcast is going to go up tomorrow Monday, but I wanted to
jump in just real quick and kind of continue the conversation that you guys were having with respect to
the state of the entertainment industry today with respect to labels and ticket agencies and
things of that nature. How far off? How many years behind? Do you guys think companies like
LiveNation and UMG and whatnot? How many years away from adaptation of Bitcoin and
Noster and RSS? How many years? How many years away are they? Do you think?
I'm, well, I'm not sure if these types of companies will ever get there.
Agreed. I just look at the past. I mean, we were talking about a little bit like, you know, I'm old
enough now to have seen some cycles and how the tech industries have worked and boom, subworked and
tech giants have been tech giants and then it's sold for nothing like AOL or, you know, just, I mean,
all these different things, you think of how powerful AOL was for such a long period of time.
And if we were having this conversation, be like, when is AOL going to have going to introduce
Bitcoin and Noster and then, you know, fast forward and AOL pretty much just exists in my
dad's email address or something at this point now and I'll think there's much to it. So,
I think what, well, probably what will happen is just companies will start up utilizing this
technology. They'll grow, they'll surpass and they'll probably do what typically happens and
kind of gobble up the old stuff or if the old or some of these companies are smart maybe they'll
and I think some will probably buy these companies to kill them, some will buy them to merge with
them to take some of their technology. But I don't think anyone will just simply adopt it in this
current world because it, by design, it takes away a lot of their ability to manipulate the situation.
I agree. I don't have a visibility into the workings of organizations like that or just were a
venue and a promoter but I just don't see any world where the incentives line up. Like why?
Why would you want to take on something that improves transparency, visibility,
when you have the benefit of your own ecosystem that everybody has to play in?
Yeah, I hadn't thought of it. I hadn't thought of it like that.
You think about ticketing, right? There's a whole bunch of things that are interesting as a promoter.
We announce shows, we put them on sale, we actually sell the tickets and we collect the money.
As a band, Sam, you know this, one of the holy grails of going on tour is getting to connect with
your fans and you don't get any of the ticket contact information for your people who buy tickets to go
to your show and all these cities. You don't get the email lists, you don't get the names, you don't get
the addresses. Sometimes you can ask nicely. Yeah, but typically no, but they're pretty protected.
And that's just an example of something that why would they change that?
Like what's the incentive? And the same thing for you put all the tickets on sale, Sam wants to play a show.
He agrees with the venue that it's going to be a $20 ticket.
Doesn't matter if that ticket gets scalped three times up to $80.
But if you had some of this technology, like if you could picture a ticketing system on Bitcoin
where it's a public blockchain, you would actually be able to watch that ticket go from
ticket master to customer and then you would know if that customer was a reseller. Yeah, exactly.
And I got pretty fascinated with this. And unfortunately it was all
altcoin chains that we're talking about it a few years ago in the last ball market. But
there were plenty of people talking about ways to make royalty overrides, you know, and you know,
transfer when you transfer that ticket to another buyer, it would go back to the creator.
But it, you know, ultimately I just haven't seen a good solution and I just I can't see a world where
some of these centralized big players would ever want that. Like why would they?
Why would they want to show how many times the ticket was transferred? They'd benefit from that
merciness. Yeah, the point you made yesterday that I wasn't aware of, which is public knowledge,
because you can find it on the internet, but how these major ticketing companies
own the secondary market as well. And that they are their own scalpers.
They can be. They can be. Yeah, they can be stopping them other than the law, which is
and typically correct. Correct. When you have enough money to pay the fines,
and the fines are less than the money you're making on the scalping than he cares.
You just work it in with the business model. Yeah, it's just one of your line items of loss.
Same as the banks, right? We know that from Bitcoin. Well, and it's just, and it's stunning because I
don't think people really know, you know, the younger artists, they have no clue how just deep the
for lack of a better word corruption is. Yeah. And the layers of protection. I mean, I think so many
young artists, they get into this because they love the art, they love the expression, they love
the feeling of playing in a band for the first time, but they don't, they don't realize that, you know,
if you don't, you know, I think hustle and business sense in many respects are more important than
your ability to craft a song. And I hate to say that, but, you know, you see the bands with great hustle
and great work ethic rise to the top where the brilliant ones, you know, we all have friends who
were freaking brilliant and you're like, why in the hell are you not out on tour? And, you know, they
don't have, they don't have, drive, they don't have, you know, I've seen that so many times in my life.
Yeah. Yeah. The, the need to hustle has always been there, but it's just the amount, the,
the amount of obligations that you have and the things that you have to keep track of, the stress
of just maintaining all these channels is, is what's changed a lot. There's just, there's too many
options, you know, yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to know where to start. It's like looking at a pile of,
you know, things you have to, I always use this analogy of like when you're, when you're moving,
you move all the big stuff first in the furniture and it's all out, but, and that takes
not that long, but then you just get like the knick knacks and stuff and that takes forever and
you hate it and you're just looking at it and you're like, oh my god, I get all this. Yeah, but,
you know, the reality of it is you just have to, you just have to do something, you start somewhere
and that's what I always tell people with like trying to navigate in this world right now because
it is so difficult. It's like just do something as long as you're making music that you're passionate
about, you will achieve some level of success. It may not be commercial success, but if you're able
to do it, you'll be fulfilled by, you know, if you're able to stick with your ethics and stick with
the way that you want to do it, then, in the, at the absolute least, you'll be happy with that you
were able to make music and you didn't have to sacrifice some part of you for this, this,
this hustle system that we all have to be a part of. I mean, I want, on that last note too, I want to say,
I think, or what I hope is more likely is that artists, this, this, this type of artists will
enable artists to be able to do these things on their own or with less friction than they have now,
you know, just like they can record in their basement or they can distribute globally the push
of a button in, you know, 19 bucks on tune course, something or now on wave lake or value for value
system, you can just get this stuff distributed everywhere so much easier than you could, you know,
10 or 20 years ago, yeah, and I think things like that, that type of stuff, I think, will continue to evolve
and that will evolve into ticketing and, and it'll be, it'll be great for venues, it'll be great for
promoters, it'll be great for these things too because it'll establish more, I think it'll just
change the rules a little bit, it's going to take some getting used to, but I think it will establish
a better connection between those two parties and I mean, I even know the hustle of being a
promoter, I was one myself for years here in Phoenix and it's a tough, I mean like you said last
yesterday, we're a busy bar and that's, that could not be more true. That is, that is the thing,
everyone thinks promoters are, and some are, you know, some like, live nation, some promoters are
making money hand over fist, but the independent promoter, it's a struggle, you have a good sold out
show here and then, you know, your thrill kill cult show in New Mexico tanks and he was $15,000 or
something and that balance is crazy and it's hard to keep up with and so it's just as much of a
hustle for these guys that it is for the artists in a lot of sense, so yeah, I just hope to see things
that will make those connections stronger and less, I don't know, less mysterious, you know, because
it's hard to know when you, when you put in an offer, you're sort of taking a gamble,
the concert promotion is at its core gambling and you're just putting faith in this artist, this artist
is going to do what, you need them to do to, to fill the, to fill the room and sometimes it works and
sometimes it doesn't and a lot of times the venues and the promoters don't get the recognition on the
loss, you know, they just kind of take the shit for the wins sometimes in the, in that world, so I
don't know, I hope that's that, I hope that bond just gets stronger because live music isn't going
anywhere and it needs, it needs a little bit of a, a, a, overhaul as well. Yeah. I think it's important to
for these young artists that are getting into this and, and we always, you know, we, I, I, we
strategize about how to get more people into this space. It's so important, so many, so many artists
are just fixated on the goal of, I just want to, you know, I want to play the major arenas, I want to
play stadiums, I want to, and they don't pay attention to the journey. Yeah. And they don't pay
attention to the signs along the journey, you know, because if, if, if they're not paying attention to
the journey, they're going to miss out on opportunities like value for value, Bitcoin, wave, like,
yeah, like, you know, live streaming, or RSS and non-star, things like that. Well, that's the thing. I
mean, when I was, when I was coming up, like you, there were two paths you could take if you were,
you know, on, had any kind of momentum, like you could sign to a label, an indie label or a major
label or something. And there was a big thing with selling out, that was the thing in like the
punk scene, like, oh, that band sold out, they sold, they signed a deal with MCA or something, and now
everyone's talking trash. Now they're on the radio and they suck down. But it was true, like, most of
those bands that did take that shortcut ended up kind of falling, falling off a bit, like maybe some
are coming back now through this nostalgia stuff, like we were talking about festivals. Yeah.
Or coming back and everyone's just like attention spans for festivals or getting ridiculous. There's
like 700 band bills. But most of those bands would kind of drop off at the bands that would just
get on the road and stay on the road and build that core all around the country and then maybe got
lucky enough to travel over the UK or something or further. Those are the ones that really had the
staying power, like bands like Jimmy E. World, Phoenix here. They're just like the perfect example
of the road dog like touring guys who have been able to sustain a career off of touring. And they
just caught that at the right time. Whereas now you can't do that. It's almost impossible to get on
the road and do that because you're not making enough money anywhere else. You can't sell enough CDs
on the road to get gas from one town to the next. So I think that will even be fixed and it won't be
some technology necessarily fixing that. It's just if artists are able to make money again through
their music to support that idea, then they'll be able to get back on that on the road. And if the
exchanges that are happening on the road are better, maybe there's live streaming in maybe there's
sat flow happening there too. And now they have this whole other monetization stream that's coming
in. That's allowing them to build and develop like they truly need to and can have that real
because there's nothing like an online fan connection is great but there's nothing like that person
a person connection. When you're on stage and you're watching your favorite band or you know what I mean
or for both side it is it is an incredible feeling if you're in the crowd it's an incredible feeling
if you're on the stage and I don't think anything can replicate that. Yeah I think it's going to be
interesting to see like we've seen some really great success with live stream sat's coming in for
shows like yesterday Sarah pulled in 1.2, 1.3. I mean that's a nice little take you know for an hour set
and good for them for doing it you know. Yeah we got to update this number see there's a little
extra that came in after the fact. Oh really? Yeah. But it's going to be interesting because I completely
agree with you saying there's nothing like a live show. Yeah. And I think people might
kind of step away from doing from you know V for V like tipping on every live show.
So somehow the interaction like if there's some customized content from these artists coming
over into you know V and Oster something like that like that might be another revenue stream something
that's different than than just hey here's them playing a gig. Yeah you know it's going to be I don't
know if you have any thoughts on that Mike I think but I think something could pop up. I just
think you know kind of like what you and I were talking privately when the pandemic hit in the live
streams went bachit crazy and then then kind of died off. Yeah I think we had so much momentum with
you know the empathy like everybody everybody wants their local coffee shop and went out of their
way to spend more money on things that they really appreciated during the pandemic and that was my
interpretation of the live stream phenomenon. Yeah. Sam nailed it like there's nothing that's
going to replace the in-person experience and the energy of the room and the curation of a live
concert but you know if you if you can't catch your favorite band and you want to go out of your
way to support them you know even a live stream if you put it out there for free value for value
you know generating 20 bucks 50 bucks 100 bucks like it does add up like the yeah I always tell people
if you really love this band and you want to support them hit up the merch table like that that
often is like the thing that tips the scale for making it worthwhile to go on tour and play these
100 200 persons show tours because you're not making it at the door if you have a band of any
you know multiple people if you have four people in the band and the tour manager like just
do the math on a hotel and meals and yeah dude I when I my band it was two of us and then we were
paying everyone else on salary so it's like a six piece band that needed needed to get paid weekly
yeah sound guy as you know you're you're going in a van as long as you can but then
a van's only so big yeah yeah that weekly nut gets a little crazy after a while
merch is it merch is a huge a huge part of it. Mm-hmm. What do you guys think
you know aside from telling bands about this opportunity with V for V in Wavelaick and whatnot
and you know and telling and then telling people who hold Bitcoin to get a you know to open up
fountain to open up Wavelaick and transfer some stats over and start you know V for V in
into these bands what else can we do to bring more people into this space. Aside from
just telling indie bands and telling Bitcoin holders about V for V like what else can we do.
I mean my take on it is just it's really no different than any business I've ever been a part of
or any or even the bands or what we were just talking about like you have to develop a strong
foundation whether you're an artist on the road looking to have a sustainable career or you have a
business in music or you have a business anywhere you know you have to it's I don't think it's any
different taking shortcuts I don't think is an option here and I think everything is primed
right now the writing is on the wall we know that we've said this a thousand times in the last few
days you know everything is is bleak not only in the music industry but just in the world the world's
crazy and in everyone sort of expecting where everyone I feel like is anticipating something is
going to have to shift because it's just everything starting to boil over. Yeah for this stuff specifically
just because that's what we're talking about I think it's just as important you know just to continue
to try to get people to build stuff that's that's my main focus it's why we're doing things the way
we're doing them at way of like because it's all open you know so we're trying to create a place
where people can can come but even more so like a lot of people Michael says it's all the time
people think of us as like a a business for the consumer like a retail business but we're not we're
really a business for the business we want other people to be building stuff on top of this we want
people to be building charts building various apps building even replicating the onboarding tools
that we have all this stuff is open source and anybody can do it and I think that's the most
important thing and some people get hung up on it because there's this technology is so new and
it's happening so fast you don't want to do it too fast you want to make sure that you're carefully
crafting this or else we're gonna miss our opportunity for this this perfect moment in time where
everything all the stars are lining and everything is pointing towards you have to change something
and we have to do it right or else some you know that a theorem conference you went to some
shit point thing is gonna come in and just it's I mean it's it's inevitable but the timing is I
think the timing is right so like we're going into a good cycle and if we can do things right
if we can act accordingly and get things organized in a way and get this community strong enough
and supporting each other all across all around all across the board yeah I think we'll have a
really good chance at breaking through that shit coin wall that we saw in 2017 when I were two in
on the last cycle 2020 and 21 where all the bands that I work with were talking to me about NFTs and I
was just realizing I was just having these you know epiphany of like oh man you're talking about this
you think this is gonna happen this is actually the answer right here it's just I can't tell you
about it yet because there's nothing there yet it's just an idea and here we are you know three years
later in moving into this next cycle and the stuff is actually here now so we do have that opportunity
it might take another cycle it might take another few years and I think the timing will if if we don't
take a shortcut I think the timing will prove itself right and this this will just happen organically
because I think that's the only way it's it's going to happen and be successful if it's purely
an organic path yeah I have a lot of respect listening to you and Michael it's been great to
see you get meet Michael for the first time and see you again since first since July since we saw
each other but the methodology and the patience that you guys are going about in building wave lake
and recognizing that we really you guys don't really only have one chance to get this right yeah
and and just hanging out with you and being in your studio and everything I get it I absolutely
get it but thanks yeah yeah we're trying man it's it's and the reason we have to be so patient is
because it's not like there's I just don't know if there's anybody who is trying to do this right now
in an organized way for mainstream adoption yeah and I'm afraid that if we if it's not us because
I mean I'm incredibly biased to say this but we we're trustworthy people you know like we're actually
we are actually doing this for the right reasons whatever I mean that some people may not
think that and that's totally fine but I absolutely do believe you guys are doing this for the right
we truly are we're we are genuine people and I can say that you know I I have no no trouble saying
that I have a lot of trouble giving myself compliments for anything else but if there's one thing
I can say about myself is I am I am genuine and I I do want to see this happen and I am afraid that
if if we don't if we can't organize enough people who truly believe that this can happen as well
then someone who isn't genuine is likely to come in and just delay this like I was just saying
and that's that's that's my fear that's my only fear you know but is because that can also be
patients can also be a downfall you know if we we might be too patient we might miss an opportunity
and that might that might cause us to have to go into the next thing but what we're not going to do
is stop you know so ultimately that I think it's gonna succeed but well that's the same thing in
many respects though I was saying earlier about paying attention to the journey you know don't you
know we can't we cannot afford to just be focused on the goal right yeah you know yeah we're gonna miss
an opportunity to you know like my you know like when you reached out and offered to do that you know
put together that show for angely and just laugh like well that piggybacking on what Sam was saying about
the long game and participating and doing things deliberately mindfully intentionally I couldn't
agree more like I got I got approached so many times I mean actually how it all happened is I
have been very private about my you know Bitcoin and you know all of this I just don't I don't
cross pollinate much professionally previously like in previous cycles and what actually happened
is during the pandemic we got approached by an s-coiner and they were going to go out
it was what perfectly well intended but it was it was a fundraiser NFT so they were issuing
NFTs to all of the Niva members Niva being the National Independent Venue Association
and we ended up selling the first avenue NFT for 20 grand just as you know total philanthropy right
and it wasn't it wasn't like a speculative NFT it was it was known that it was a fundraiser
but actually a two-villoo the artist from Sweden bought it really yeah pretty cool she's played a bunch of
our most of our rooms actually but yeah this this company reached out and that's that's when I outed
myself like you know they approached they approached our owner and I was like hold on time out like
I need to tell you that I know what's going on here like let me do some diligence on this yeah and
but we had point being as we had we'd been approached by a lot of people who wanted to you know monetize
and that's just such a that you know that cycle and the NFTs it's just so transactional it's just
gross it's not it's not like a a long value add to the industry to just sell digital widgets and flip
you know speculative yeah digital assets but um you know the the long game you know when I
when I launched Toonser you know Sam nailed it it's like this is all open source like I don't know
what the hell I'm doing like I just who does I just took you know I I took a flyer on I mean I know
what we have in real life we have amazing venues and great relationships and a lot of bands we have a
lot of touch points with 1200 shows which means 2500 bands yeah that I get to interact with a year yeah
and you know I just I just knew that if we could somehow communicate what's going on at the
ground level to some of these people maybe somebody like Ainsley or Just Loud or Sarah Jade would take
you know take notice of it yeah well that shows that shows your patience and I had very similar experiences
with because I as you guys know we're sitting in this merch warehouse right now and I had I can't
even tell you how many managers approached me knowing that I was into something in this you know
they've caught on to something like I've been also a little vague but enough that people have
seen some things out there and that's what's cool about it because we're sort of I mean this is
little over dramatic but we're kind of like this little silent army waiting to help you know we're
just here like a rescue crew actually maybe a better way to put it and so when these things come up
you can actually you're just sort of there to protect them from making a mistake that's how
that's how I felt about it I was like I'm not going to help you with this you know and in like two or
three years you're going to see why and that's you're actually going to I know you're probably going
to be pissed and you're probably going to go do it anyway with someone else's help but when you get
screwed over or the bankets screwed over or the fans get screwed over you're going to remember this
conversation and you're going to come back to me and I'm going to actually give you the answer
because by the time you figure that out there will be something much better for you to do there's
just it's not there right now it's not worth it for me to explain it to you right now but that's
what we need to be doing we need to just be you know just preparing for when these when these artists
need help and we're all going to be I mean I think all three of us you know Jimmy and I have talked
about it a lot it's like you're very actively and very successfully finding your place in the space
and incredibly short period of time trying to who the hell knows where these podcasts will take me
right but that but I I always tell you they will take you somewhere and I'm a firm believer of
that that's how my entire life has worked I just like if you just just do the thing that you are
passionate about you will find your place eventually and and with this in particular I think we're
all going to be very helpful to a lot of people yeah because we're taking the time we have the patients
to learn what we need to learn we're making mistakes that will need to be made so that we can
help people avoid them cut corners get there faster and get there and it because it is so delicate when
you're dealing with when you're dealing with a band you're not just dealing with the band you're
dealing with their entire audience you're dealing with an entire career you're in dear you're
dealing with their emotion like they're their soul who they are you know because music is such a
powerful thing it's like you have to think of it like I cannot this person is like pouring their heart
out as a musician am I gonna try to get them to sell an NFT you know like and rip off all their
fans it's gonna be crazy and that could be something that could be so disruptive in the path of an
artist career would never want to participate that so if we could in that so if we could
do exactly the opposite and use this technology to help them engage better and
I hate talking about money but it is such an important part of an artist career because they have
none you know starving artists need money just the way it is so if we can help with all that stuff
in hopefully the near future I think I don't know I'm excited about it it's one thing I'm so
it's why I'm here it's why even after I have this you know I've had this business that
the worst this room we're sitting in for 16 years I'm ready to just kind of like figure out how
to make music again and just have fun but then I find out about this stuff and I have to just jump
right back in and use all of my experience in that world to try to help Michael and get this thing
where it needs to be and it's only the only reason I'm doing it is because I feel I'm equipped to
help in some capacity and I think the same goes for you guys I think that's why we're sitting today
yeah coming back to your original question of you know what what can people do and what is the
you know what is the path and talking about being very slow and in a long game and I think
one of the you know one of the observations that I had you know toonster nobody knew about it
until December it was just in my head it's been in my head for years I just don't know how to code
and I'm not a dev but yesterday at culture shock it was kind of funny for me to to be treated like a
builder you know like yeah and like some people from the Nostra community came up to me he's like I
just want to help you know help the toonster team as much as I can and I was kind of giggling to
myself as like the toonster team is here there's no team and and so I just want to you know I want to
incur a you know what sam said is right like the it's all open source yeah and for a really long time
I sat on the sidelines and and watched things happen and thought like man we are the leader in independent
music and this is independent money and independent everything it just lines up so perfect but I
just don't know what to do I'm not I don't have I don't have money to hire a developer and do all this stuff and
you with an open source community people want to help yeah and I there's really no magic to what I did
I just showed up and started asking a bunch of questions and told my story and said what I could contribute
and then Kieran you know helped me fork zap.stream carnage and built my website is that work carnage is
yeah I've doxed it's so funny like I'm still put like I seriously had to put together a list at home
of like all right who's this guy and who is yeah and my like like characters in this shell yeah my my
fake the like the fake name that I use as an example is like all right who is Sir underpants of Florida
yeah you know because there's a you know Sir Libre and Sir Spencer and all these folks and I've
like I literally had to had to start out a word document so I can remember who they are sorry
keep going yeah but everybody just you know I feel like I was just a coordinator I didn't actually
do the work yeah you don't have to you don't have to do the work to be a builder at all you I mean it's
I mean yeah you did Jim did he say you used to be a general contractor yeah yeah you probably weren't
maybe you weren't hammering the the roof on maybe you were sometimes but right no no you know there's a lot
of there's a lot of people that help in a project and you need you need all these assets in building a
project it's not just like doing the the coding it's it's the vision it's the having the patience
it's having the idea it's simply just being available is it's what I've learned I've been interested
in this for 10 years now and I was always just like I'm here but I don't I don't know I don't know
what to do you know and then eventually then someday something clicks and you figure out oh here's my
like my door just opens and now I can walk through it now I have more clarity but it just goes back
to that I guess the theme of the show is patience because it just goes back to that you have to have
patience yeah like brute force your way into this Bitcoin space you have to wait until your number
comes up and you're like okay cool I'm good now yeah there's no shortcut for anyone and that's
why we're building value it's NFTs and all that garbage seem like a shortcut you just get rich quick
you know there's you can't fake it you got to just take the long game and
and build I have studied NFTs a bit and I had a and I had a great artist on the business hour like three
or four weeks ago via let us errone she's from Italy she lived in Nashville she is full-time
musician full-time NFT like she is making it work yeah she's got a good good support base around
her and and I love her voice I love her writing she's kind of like um
Diana Crawl and Katie Malua out of the UK and it's a it's a it's a fascinating thing and she's
starting to move over towards Bitcoin and Ordinals and I'm very curious as to see where she's going to go
yeah you know I mean she's she's had like a million dollars a million dollar sales in the
secondary market with her in a tease and I'm just stunned you know and not not on a bad way I'm just
I'm thrilled for her but I still don't as much as I understand NFTs I also don't understand NFTs
you know but I do but I do think at my core only being eight months into this Bitcoin in value for value
and just that direct exchange is so much more pure and so much simpler yeah
I think I think yeah I have a somewhat complicated take on ordinals and all that stuff I mean
but at at the very the most simple way you can't tell anybody what to do with with Bitcoin that's
the whole point you may not agree with ordinals but if they're available to do through the the
consensus of the network has enabled that to happen that's just a that's a repercussion of of the way
this works which is how this works and the beautiful thing about it is if enough people don't like
that or if it's causing congestion it was one of the early fears of it then just change it you know
you just you get you get a majority vote and you just change it and you change you change the
rules or people fork off and do other things and they they have an ordinals chain or something and then
Bitcoin just continues to be Bitcoin but at the end of the day I mean this is you know Bitcoin for
everyone Bitcoin scaling globally it's going to need to be able to serve every single person in every
single way just like any other transactional currency works you have to have money for good things
and you have to have money for bad things you have to have money for virtuous things and you have to
have money for scams you just do you know it's just the way it's just the way the world's going to work
luckily this will prevent a lot of that stuff from happening in a in a way that it happens now because
a lot of it is out in the open and so it will but people will still find ways to manipulate Bitcoin they
and and even if there was like a blockchain ticketing thing someone to figure out you know
yeah some will figure it out and they'll figure out a way to manipulate it and then
someone will figure out how to fix it and then some will figure out how to manipulate that
but at the end of the day I mean with that with that stuff I would especially for an artist even
though I don't agree with it and I would always try to tell people to move away from that stuff and
focus on their art if that is her art then who am I to say what to do or not do with it you know
and that's how I feel about it and and all these and I'm happy I'm of the opinion that it's much better
I'd much rather have that stuff on Bitcoin actually than anywhere else because at least Bitcoin is the
is the is the much better product for people it's decentralized and so they're not going to be able to
be scammed as easily they're not going to be able to just spin these tokens up in the way that they
could in these in these centralized you know tokens and coins and things and bring in celebrities to do
I mean they'll have ways to do that still I would imagine but just not not as I don't know not as
horribly yeah I'm not I'm not anti NFT I just don't care right like it's right that's fine you don't
have to care and I don't either like yeah we don't care but someone if someone does and that's their
art and that's the way they want to that's the way they want to distribute it then yeah I
yeah I shouldn't say I don't care I just I think that you know I was I was a huge baseball card
collector when I was a kid yeah and that so I actually you know like during the last bull market I
have some NFTs like Nas released an album and it was kind of a at the time it felt like a cool concept
it was you get a share of his royalties on that song is like buying a share of stock in his song
not it not enforceable legally at all and you know it was on a you know now that you know more about
the the chain that it was on you know if that ever became really valuable you don't want to store
your value in something that's not decentralized with proof of proof of work and that that's my problem
with NFTs among others but like yeah if one of these things got to be really valuable why do you
want to have it on an insecure platform like yeah exactly that's what I mean it's like wouldn't you
prefer it to be on an ordinal right just because at least you know it's on at least you know where it is
you know and it just it just creates you know there are tons of good faith actors in those other
ecosystems but when you're in a system that isn't bullet proof on security and has made those
trade-offs the Bitcoin refuse to make it just creates another level of due diligence that
isn't necessary like I don't want to figure out if this project's a scam or this one's not and I
don't want to trust you if your projects a scam or not and yeah you know it's just it's just not
necessary if you use Bitcoin kind of along that line of NFTs and you know we were talking earlier
about labels a little bit and then use a little bit I had coffee a couple weeks ago with a songwriter
friend in Nashville and I was telling him about value for value Bitcoin and
and he's one of those folks that immediately goes back to the PRO and to the publishing house
right yep and he had said that last summer just about every writer in Nashville that he knew
that had a pub deal had to resign because web3 and NFTs were not in the language specifically
related to the term known universe yeah and so everybody was having everybody who was signed to a
you know significant pub deal had to go back and resign because all of these artists had been
making a boatload of money on NFTs outside of the scope of the of the pub deal in the PRO
and they were trying to come around and get their money and I think that and I was and I was
fascinated to hear that yeah yeah we filed all of our first avenues iconic logos and everything we
we we refiled all of our IP okay for the same you know protections and whatever metaverse or you know
web3 but like yeah all those use cases like if somebody wanted to use our likeness or create a
first avenue venue and de-central and or one of those yeah I think about what Arkinox was talking
about yesterday in cyberspace like someone could go he was explaining it more at dinner at dinner
last night it was blowing my mind but about mining for property in cyberspace it's like go mind
property in time square so you could have the advertising revenue in cyberspace in 10 years you know
and the way it works is you can you can't just it's not like you just go buy the land you have to just
say you have to sort of mine in the region and you have to mine a lot and you have to use a lot of
power to get isolated into that one spot you know you have to be lucky to get it but yeah it's like
maybe I'll go mind over on first app you know see if I can take the IP for it.
Take over my office yeah Sam it damn Sam get out of my office well that kind of leads me to like the
to the last question that I have for you guys I mean I don't necessarily worry of with with
respect to independent artists and professionally aspiring artists artists who are emerging like
like a Joe Martin or a man like Quacks or Saraje or you know the band I wrote or or even
Anzaly for that matter I don't necessarily worry about the the the major labels coming into this
world you know I don't I don't see necessarily how an ask cap or a BMI or a C-SAC is really going to
have any sort of significant play if there is a direct relationship between the listener and the
person giving the sats to the artist like how in the hell is is ask cap or BMI ever going to jump
in there but I'm I'm gonna try yeah oh yeah that oh yeah that's like a try and here's the analogy
that I'm trying to work on on my my lovely wife was like yeah you need to work on that because you
ain't so I'm it the analogy that I was trying to make is like if if you own a restaurant and
you like if I own the restaurant and you guys came in for dinner right and you guys pay the bill
but then out of the corner comes this comes this guy who's like hey I'm a farmer I make food and
since you sold food I deserve a cut of that check between the the guys who bought the dinner and the
business owner it's like well the but the money was was directly in between just because you make
food just because you have provide a service that adds to the service in general yeah I'm still
working on the analogy like it's a terrible analogy there's I don't know how the hell they're gonna
just slip themselves into it they'll try but I mean I I'm worried I'm not even worried about them
to be honest I'm not I think there will be some fights and I think they'll win some and I think
but I think they'll ultimately if this all works and obviously I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't
think it's a very strong chance but everybody's gonna want a piece of this yeah you know everybody's
gonna I mean I'm sure you've even seen it just in the eight months it's like you get any
it's just the way these things always work it doesn't even have to be in this space but like
someone's see success and all the sudden people just come flocking wanting to attach to it in some
way and wanted to get their hand in it somehow and wanted to get a piece of piece of something you know
um I think a lot of people who do that are genuine as well and they're excited because a lot of
people have been waiting for something like this to happen and a lot of those a lot a lot of that
stuff will turn into cool projects you know it's like because those people have also just been
waiting at their doors to walk in and so they see something like Ainsley having success or
they watch the stream on tunes or something and they're just like whoa and it clicks for them and then
they they just will approach and be like I'm here what can I do what can I help what can I help with
but a lot of a lot of those people will um we'll just be looking to make a buck off of that
opportunity they're just you know there's opportunistic people out there um that are good and bad
and we're gonna be I think that's what we're actually gonna be fighting much more uh
like when you saw live streaming in 2020 in 2021 um we're talking about it last night it was like
almost like these all these live streaming companies were already pre-packaged and ready to go
it was just like where did these come like 12 fully branded established startups that like
seemingly got funded overnight and have like 20 employees it's like what the hell like where did
I say how did this happen it was like it literally was like they knew what this was gonna happen
or something is so crazy because I my first thought like the second week of March I was like that's how
I learned how to do OBS that's the only reason I even know how to do it some like we're gonna have
to we're gonna have to live stream so like apparently everybody was having that exact same thought because
within a week I was like no we're not because like 10 companies just came out of nowhere um but yeah
I think but that was a that was a moment where being in the music business and working directly
with artists I mean there were like wolves at every corner just waiting to take a piece of something
like oh these guys are making money doing live streams on Instagram and they're selling merch and
they're they're fundraising and they're doing these big charitable events we need a piece of that
you know and it's kind of gross but at the same time a lot of those companies did end up helping
bands make some money and get through that at that time you know so well we're so here's my last
question because Mike I know you got to get on a flight and go back home to the cold bird
all right so it is February 18th 2026 it's two years from now let's hear let's let's hear your
projections where are we two years from now and I'm gonna put a note in my calendar to go back and
if I'm alive good Lord Rowell and in the Creek Dull Rise right two years from now I'll go back
and listen to this like what what what where are we two years from now with respect to anything
in this genre like price of Bitcoin value for value gigs wave like RSS what do you feel really
strongly about where we are two years from now Mike 2026 I mean I I'm a big corner because I'm
you know I think it makes me feel safe right and Sam spoke about how uncertain the world feels right
now and so when you ask me about 2026 it's not all it's not all roses and unicorns right but uh
all the national parks have been turned into parking lots yeah but I mean unfortunately I think a lot
of these you know we sit here and talk about censorship resistance hard money all of the
protections and value that we see in Bitcoin and the adjacent communities unfortunately
you know the majority of people are perfectly fine um sacrificing privacy and security for convenience
and I think a lot of these things really take off in dark times right so like there could be a weird kind of
good and bad when like Bitcoin becomes really mainstream it might not be a great you know might not
be a great function for a lot of people um like some bad things in the world might be going on with
their monetary systems but you know as Bitcoin grows and more people become aware of it these things
in music are going to be more exposed you know when the price goes up you know you're going to start
getting those texts from your friends who want to know about Bitcoin and then when when Bitcoin goes
up maybe these musicians will listen to me and say yeah I want I want to do that thing that you were
doing in 2024 yeah I want to do that thing now I'm ready now yeah I want even if they just want that
hard money you know yeah like they might not care about the string you know but it's yeah I think
I really do think even this fall I think you're going to hear people talking about it on the
campaign trail I think you're gonna you're gonna hear about more and more the more politicians talk
about it in a negative sense everything's good for Bitcoin you know it really like I kind of like
I come to that conclusion of you know if people are trying to shut it down more people are
going to want it yeah and um I just think it's going to be in 2026 I think it's going to be right
there in your face and um and hopefully you know we will we will have played the long game in music and
set that foundation for when the floodgates open will be ready to you know have toons stir going
multiple times a day and wave lake will have mainstream artists because it really could just be
a gradually then suddenly moment where yeah some major artist has a success and you know we saw
Ainsley Castello just getting the million sat song you know that could be like your your first
ball run of wave lake yeah yeah well one of the things I think that will happen within two years
or two years from now is on wave lake you will have multiple people every month
getting a million sats a song oh yeah that's one of the things I think will happen unless
the set will be worth so much more yeah oh yeah I mean the other thing and I want to get to your
predictions but here's here's here's a couple of my heart predictions one is I think you'll have
multiple artists getting a million sats per song per month I think Bitcoin I'm not convinced I'm
Bitcoin hitting seven figures but I I'm pretty comfortable saying 250,000 in two years yeah which
will lower the amount of streaming sats that we see on podverse and pod fans and true fans and
things of that nature but as the value goes up you know that's okay and I think somebody I also
think congress will be paralyzed continuously I don't think we're going to get through this
political cycle just because of a next you know the next presidential election in nine months I don't
think it's gonna change really that much of anything which is good for Bitcoin but I do think that
and I've said this many times I do think somebody is going to bust out and go mainstream
from the value for value world and they and when they go mainstream and they start talking and
the mainstream press picks up on hey where'd you get your start where'd you have your first success
and when that artist comes back and says well you know what it really happened over in Bitcoin
but yeah and I don't know who that artist is going to be I meant maybe that artist doesn't even
hasn't even hit the RSS and and Noster feeds yet well here's here's my bold prediction then I'm
gonna find them I hope you do as we've got yeah we've got the venues for yeah we've got the most
people running through our doors every year it just takes one yeah say I'm what are your predictions
two years from now where yeah and I think you guys are pretty dead on I mean I I agree I don't know
if we'll quite make it if we're talking a technical analysis here I don't think we'll quite make it
to 250 but I do think we'll get close to two you know we'll definitely be in the six digit territory
yeah which is gonna be a significant milestone for a lot of people um especially now this number
just as this number goes up and up it gets it gets less you're less able to sort of talk about it going
down to zero now becomes almost impossible yeah whereas like when it was in 2020 when it dipped down
to three thousand dollars that was a significant drop from 20 you know but then if we get to
a hundred and fifty thousand dollars and it drops down to back down to 50 or 60 or 80 or something
that's still kind of hard to argue it's hard to argue at that point so yeah I think the price
action will definitely drive in a lot of those aunts and uncles and cousins and neighbors and friends
again like you said we'll start getting those text messages and that will the really cool thing
that I've been very tapped into is the the builders market the builders market that we were in the
last three years there have been some incredible infrastructure things put in place in the last three
years that are that will are preparing us for what's about to happen for this next next
explosion and a lot of those companies that started in the last three years have been developing will
be solidified and will become bigger companies and that will pave the way for a whole new generation
of awesome ideas and innovation that's going to come out all this stuff so I think there's going to be
a lot of confusion I would say in two years I think there will be a lot of confusion because we'll see
more people coming in but just like anything like the other thing I keep saying like a lot of people
will come in fast to try to catch the wave of what's happening and when we go back down to the
whatever that the end of that cycle is I think some people will be sort of confused with how that
works and that's pretty common in these cycles but I think as the cycles continue to progress that
it will become more stable it will become a more stable thing you know because Bitcoin becomes more
scarce the supply becomes more scarce just because we have these ETFs and things buying up the supply
every every day almost now in the last few weeks so I mean I'm very hopeful for it I do agree the world's
going to be probably pretty funky in two years I think the financial situation is not going to get
to get better I think we're going to see some form of like a digital you know fed currency or something
will will be there but I think that all those things will just be more reason for people to want to
jump into this yeah well my hope I hope in two years I'm still doing podcasts I'm still doing I'm
still having great conversations like this yeah I want to thank you guys I've said this to you
privately I'm happy to share it publicly what you guys have done from my life from my family's life
has been transformative since July it's just been stunning I cannot thank you guys enough for your
friendship and your mentorship and for the opportunities that you've provided and for sending me
down this crazy rabbit hole path we're here to help Jim that's why we're here we want to
see we want to see everybody who's passionate about this be successful and and find their way that's
that's what we're doing here so happy to have to be your friend right up like was let's let's check
in on these predictions in a couple yeah yeah two years of a b see who's right yeah yeah we
should we're all gonna right I should repost it you know it'll be I mean that means I'm going to have
to change the podcast schedule because it'll probably fall on a Tuesday instead of a Monday
no it'd be a Wednesday wouldn't it because it'd be two years cycle I don't know that's that's what
we have to ask me that's what we have Google calendars for so gentlemen thank you very much thank you
I'll see you when I see you awesome and Sam like man I wish I could stick around and place
some of these cool hey feel free cool keyboards and amps you got in this place and Michael saved
travels home brother yeah thank you appreciate it thanks for pressing the buttons for us today Sam
yeah but now let's go see if it actually saved let's check it out well there you have it that was a
lot of fun and if you found yourself fiddling with the volume on your phone your podcast player
don't worry about it that was us we rushed in we reported it we rushed out so I'm here in the studio
and I had to compress the lib of the Jesus out of those files just to get them up to a certain
audible level so that's why you hear it all that hiss in the background I also want to thank Michael
Reed from Waibili I had a lot of fun conversations with him Saturday night after the event was over
we just sat there and geeked out about music and we were trading record ideas and
you know people to listen to so just wanted to give a shout out to him as well thank you guys very
much for listening thank you for all the sats over the over the past couple weeks I'll do a recap
on those later on in the week don't forget on Wednesday we'll be back with another fan of power
music hour and then on Friday we will do the Phantom Power music review and that'll do it
if you got any questions reach out to us on NOSTA reach out to us on telegram and also on the
website phantompowermusic.io that'll do it kids take care we'll talk to you soon