(upbeat music)
Hey everybody, welcome back to Phantom Power Music.
This is a Business Hour podcast.
We're gonna be talking about the music industry
and we're gonna be talking about
how to bring independent musicians into this space.
I am joined by two guys who are needy,
pippedy, pneck deep in Bitcoin.
Bobby Schell, vice president of marketing at Valtich
and Sean Yeager, head of sales at Ambas.
They have both been in the industry for years.
They are far more knowledgeable than I am
and they're both musicians.
So I thought it would be fun to get the three of us
together and kinda strategize and spitball
as to how we should talk to independent musicians.
And I'm hoping that independent musicians
around the world will listen to this.
'Cause these guys bring a lot of knowledge.
They bring some insight that I don't have
and they're able to speak to it
in a much more eloquent fashion.
So without any further ado,
I will bring down the background music on loop
and we will bring in Bobby and Sean
and I really hope you guys enjoy this conversation.
Here we go.
Well, welcome back everybody.
Very excited to have two gentlemen
that I've had a lot of conversations with in person
and publicly.
Two guys that have been in the Bitcoin space for quite some time
and bring a tremendous amount of knowledge into this conversation.
And they're also musicians.
So on the line with me, Bobby Schell,
vice president of marketing with voltage,
Bobby is also a small business owner
and is a scrapper in all of the good regards
and is also a musician
and you can check out his music over on Wade Lake
and also very excited to have Sean Yeager
out of sales at Ambas.
Sean has also been a consultant and advisor
to companies like Clover and Sonata
if I'm pronouncing that right, Sean Orange Pill and NY Dig.
And Sean's a musician as well, bit of a drummer,
playing around town a little bit in Nashville.
So I thought it'd be fun to get these guys together
and talk about Bitcoin and talk about music.
So welcome, fellas.
- Hey. - Thank you.
- Yeah, this will be fun.
I did meet-- - I did meet subjects.
- Sean, I didn't even know you played music.
So this will just be fun learning more about you too.
- Absolutely, likewise.
- So let's think about it this way.
Like I was thinking about you guys and it's like, okay,
how do we bring musicians into this space?
And if Sean and Bobby and I were at a bar down in Nashville,
down downtown, and we saw this amazing band.
And while we're sitting there watching them,
we bring up their Spotify and we see like,
man, these guys are so damn good,
but they're only getting like 5,000 streams of song
and then we go to their socials.
And like, there's only 2,000 people following this band
and we're like, how in the wide world of sports
is nobody following this band?
How come people don't know about this band?
So the three of us being a bunch of sales goobers
and Bitcoin fans that we are and being musicians
decide, all right, we gotta get these guys
into the Bitcoin space.
How do we do it?
So Bobby, let me start with you.
Like if we put our sales Bitcoin musician brain on,
how would you explain two musicians to this band
that we've just seen?
How would you explain value, what value for value?
Is and how it could help this unsigned band?
Yeah, so, yeah, specifically for an unsigned band,
I would paint two pictures for any artist
having this conversation that I think frames
this entire hour or whatever we spend perfectly.
So like Snoop Dogg today, it's December 8th
when we're recording this.
He says he got over a billion streams on Spotify
and made less than $45,000.
We've talked before in just in passing together
how there's so many people who take cuts out of a song.
So if you don't own your music,
you're not gonna make any money, just straight up.
So if you don't own your music fully,
this is absolutely for you
and it's a way for you to better connect with your audience,
whether it just be you being an influencer
without your song or with your song number one.
Part two, if you're an independent band,
this is even more so for you
because you might not have label executives,
all these people with their hand in the pot
taking money off the top from you.
So this is very valid for you.
And I think for an independent band,
we're in a world where it's not just about touring anymore,
you've got the digital internet.
And if you're making music, if you're paying attention
to TikTok, you are likely very well in the loop now
that marketing and music is wildly different
than it was years before.
And TikTok's the place you have to be.
And if you're on there, you probably are building
quite the following, but then you think,
well, how do I monetize this?
Like, what can I do to just take this audience
and rally them around me and community matters and music?
And you want to really find ways to create community,
get involved and get interacted with your audience
and tell them, hey, I am displaying my music in this new way.
It's called Value for Value.
And what's great about it is you can stream money directly
to me and we'll dive into all that
and we make 99% of it.
No one else takes the cut.
And I think there's two lenses to like kick off
the entire conversation.
If you don't own a bunch of your music
and you're like Snoop Dogg, only making $45,000
over a billion streams, that sucks.
Like a counter price, a rapper nowadays
who owns his entire stack of music.
He's making 250 grand a month off Spotify
because he owns his stuff.
So you're either an owner or you're not full stop.
So if you are an owner, you're going to make way more money
leveraging this.
If you're not an owner, there's a very compelling reason
to put the ball in your court
and give yourself more control and direct connection
with your audience.
So I'll start right there as like a simple framing.
Yeah, Sean, what's your thought there?
I mean, he hit on the big one there, you know,
like financial sovereignty.
Like what goes through your mind when you think about that
and how to get these guys to start stacking sats.
Yeah, I mean, I think not surprisingly Bobby nailed it.
And I think the two takeaways are ownership in 99%.
You know, if I was going to leave them with a couple of key points,
I mean, I would take a slightly different approach to it,
which is to say I would turn it on its head,
kind of a classic sales technique, which is,
let's focus on their problems first.
And I think one of the challenges that I know we've
bubbled up through our conversations
is it's really not about selling Bitcoin or value for value.
It's about understanding the challenges they have.
Frankly, do they recognize that their challenges
have they tried anything different?
Are they willing to attempt to break out?
And then mapping that to what value for value and Bitcoin can do.
So in other words, if I had 20 minutes
with that artist, that band in that bar,
I would really want to dive in and understand, you know,
what adjutates them the most.
Are they?
And, you know, I spent, by the way, five years
as a partner in a music tech accelerator here in Nashville.
And I hesitate to say this, but there's a lot of artists
that are quite content in what we would
see as a very, very miserable situation.
And that's just the sad truth of it, I think.
So for those who are motivated to try something different
for those who are willing, I think it is, you know,
getting an understanding of what is going to animate them.
But certainly, as Bobby said, I think, unfortunately,
it's a non-starter if they're locked in some
egregious 360 record label or publishing deal.
But I think, you know, I think as a--
let's just put it this way-- as a community.
We use that word a lot, but as a bunch of Bitcoiners and Noster
users and whatever other sovereign tech stack we are assembling
here, I think it's incumbent upon us
to meet them where they are and to show empathy
and to show an understanding of their challenges,
which certainly I know you, if your gentleman, do.
But I think the messaging has to center on that
and the technology and the features and benefits come secondary.
So let me play the role of the dumb bass player in the band.
Like, I only play one note at a time, half the time
I don't know the chords.
So it explains it's like, wait a second, guys.
OK, this all sounds good, but you're going over my head.
Like, what the hell is Bitcoin?
Like, break it down for me, like, I'm a dumb bass player.
Like, I hear of this all the time.
What the hell is Bitcoin?
Bobby, what is Bitcoin?
Yeah, someone asked this earlier today on Twitter
explaining like I'm a five-year-old.
And, you know, I think the simple thing is--
for those who are in Bitcoin, we
realize that our wealth grows over time.
We have more purchasing power over time.
So like, what does that actually mean?
Well, I feel like anyone who's kind of been alive
and hear the last few years, you've kind of felt prices go up.
There's things you cannot control.
These extraneous variables, like what
the federal reserve does with interest rates
and how they can print money.
And all of these levers, they pull.
It impacts us as people.
It makes the cost of goods go up.
It drives up the cost of living.
And it just creates challenges for us.
Like, what does Bitcoin do?
It helps try to address that problem digitally, where
now we have money, where the supply is fixed,
and no matter how in demand it gets,
you can't make more of it.
Therefore, what we've seen across history
is it not only retains its value,
but it grows relative and value to the cost of goods
that are in the market.
So as a creative, as someone who is an entrepreneur,
that's very appealing.
You know, at the end of the day, we simply
want money because of what it can get us.
And that's typically their time or some other good or service.
So if you're a creative, it's great to find a way
to integrate Bitcoin into what you're doing because money's
hard in the music industry.
It's very, very challenging.
So if you could earn a form of money that
over a long time horizon goes up in value,
that's pretty powerful for you.
And more importantly, it connects you
to a global audience.
Now with streaming music and the internet
and the ability to connect with anyone globally,
it's quite fascinating and interesting
that you can go viral and be worldwide.
And why not give the world the ability to connect with you?
And what's really fun for artists is you
can actually incentivize people to come and engage with you
and have fun enjoying you over the internet
with small fractions of a Bitcoin.
Anyone who's a new artist, there's a guy named Nick D.
He's in the crew with that guy, Connor Price.
And he's absolutely destroying it.
Record label is literally go tell the artist,
hey, model after this independent guy who leverages TikTok,
like the marketing departments can't really do
near what the artist can.
Like if the script is flipped like we discussed.
And for him, he would run paid ads online
to get his music known when he first started.
Well, nowadays you can run an incentive
or a little offer to get people to come engage.
And it's even lower cost.
So there's a lot of options and things,
but that's really what Bitcoin is.
It's obviously money like we believe.
But there's a lot of technological advancements
and just delightful ways you can use it
to attract people to listen and enjoy your music.
Yeah, I mean, if I had to explain what Bitcoin is,
and Sean, I'm going to ask you the same question.
Like how would we explain it to somebody?
Like I would just try and keep it simple.
I'm like, look, it's a digital currency.
Number one, number two, you have to understand the fact
that there's only going to be X amount of it.
There's only going to be 21 million.
And anytime you have something that the scarcity of it
is defined, the value is going to go up.
Case in point, there's only X amount of the Honest Wagner
baseball cards.
And they are worth hundreds of thousands
of millions, right?
Or let's put it in the musician terms.
There is a reason why a 1959 pre-CBS vendor's strata
is worth as much as it's worth because there's only
because the quality of it, but there's only so many of them
that are out there.
It's the scarcity of it that is indicative of its value.
And that, to me, are--
those are two things that I always bring up when somebody
asks what it is.
Sean, what do you think?
Well, you said, basis, all.
Explain it like I'm a drummer, which I am.
Which is, I would tend to say that it offers you
the security and the scarcity of gold and a vault,
but it moves with the speed and the ease of cash app.
And see where that takes us.
And I think so much of that conversation, of course,
it played out is going to be feeding into what connects,
but I think as flawed as we all know,
the digital gold metaphor is, I think it's
a useful tool in conversations like that.
That's really a great point.
What we've talked about the value of Bitcoin,
what it is, digital currency.
And we've kind of briefly touched upon the percentages
of the income stream.
And Bobby, and you brought up Nick D and Conor Price,
and for these artists that own their catalog, right?
And maybe the three of us are in a band,
and we have to split the royalties one third.
How would you guys explain that to somebody
in terms of, hey, guys, you can post your songs up in Web3
in the space.
There's a lot of different places where you can do this.
You got LNB, you got Tombstone, you got radio shows,
like Boost Grand Ball and Lightning Thrashes,
and all these great shows around that are playing music.
And you got services like Wave Lake.
And oh, by the way, you can set it up to where all four members
of your band, or all three members of your band,
who never wrote the song, that you can set up the splits
in there automatically.
So as the pieces of Bitcoin come in,
everybody gets paid, whatever you guys agreed to on the splits,
and everybody gets paid at the same time.
Is there a different way to explain that?
Sean, is there a better way of explaining what the back-end
splits are to people?
What if I could replace your PROs in a six-month waiting time
with a few lines of software and a couple of microseconds?
And we know it's not that clean, but I mean, that's where we're headed, right?
And I mean, I realized, maybe there's some--
I have friends at PROs here in Nashville,
and I love them dearly, but these are antiquated.
And our, you know, anachronistic business is that just need to be replaced.
And I think most of the musicians I know have deep pains associated
with those six-month, nine-month pay-out wait times.
And I'm hesitant-- you know, I said what I said,
tongue-in-cheek, because I'm hesitant to promise anything
that sounds too good to be true.
But I think that's effectively what this does,
is to swap out those middlemen for some code and some instant gratification.
And the dumb bass player jumps in and says,
"What's a PRO?"
And then I respond, "Ap.
A PRO is your performing rights organization."
That is Ask Cat, that is BMI, that is CSAC,
that is whomever is that you guys have registered your songs with.
That is, quote unquote, supposed to be double-checking
all of the different opportunities that your music has given you
and therefore paying you accordingly.
But as Michael Frenchon has mentioned,
you have to wait about six months for your mailbox money
and even then hope that they got it right.
So Bobby, what do you-- like how would you explain the back-end splits
and that instantaneous benefit to independent musicians?
Yeah, I mean, when it comes to music or like how a lot of this--
or it comes to like telling educating people about Bitcoin
or how this works, I almost don't even
want to bring up the supply cap and all the typical things we talk about.
I only want to like address specifically how it serves them.
And I think for musicians, you can get immediate withdrawal,
like of just your money, you know, it's CD Baby or whatever tool you're using.
There's caps of like, oh, once you hit $10, $15,
like imagine it just like streaming directly to your mobile phone
and to your wallet any time you need it.
And if you do collaborate and make music with friends,
you can have it split immediately in real time directly to you.
And what I would tell them is, you know, anyone who's a musician now
who hasn't been on TikTok, they're kind of learning,
man, I wish I was an early adopter.
Well, this is a great opportunity to kind of slow down, pump the brakes
and learn what this thing really is because anyone who's an early adopter
to a new technology typically tends to be a very big winner.
And I would encourage people to test it and explore it and try it
and tell that story because you might find that it is the reason
your music even gets discovered.
And that's really important.
And yeah, like I think with a band,
yeah, I think it emphasized that.
Great, great point.
The only other thing too is I think it kind of paints the picture.
I don't know if it was David Bowie or Jim Morrison,
or they were like, you know, one day it'll be a guy on stage
all by himself playing music is like a one man band.
And we're seeing that.
Like if you play in a band with a bunch of members, it's really challenging.
Like one band that's killing it doing right now is Lawrence,
the band Gracie Lawrence and her brother.
And they're just absolutely phenomenal.
They're doing social media the right way.
They're crushing it.
They're like a eight person band, but that's a lot of money being spread out
where modern musicians, you can make beats on your computer,
make music on your computer, sample stuff,
record it all by yourself and take home all the revenue.
So it really depends on how you're approaching music.
I mean, you can be successful in both.
And it's fair to say that a lot of like artists who are going
fully digital in some cases, they're more successful, you know?
But it's a really interesting topic.
It's just, yeah, it could get pretty deep, pretty quick.
Bobby, I always love talking to you about this man because like every time you bring
up like four or five artists that I've never heard of, right?
And I'm like, damn, I gotta check that to you now, right?
Yeah.
Lawrence, the band's pretty cool because they're using,
I just got invited to a beta of something that they're a part of.
That's interesting.
And it's cool because it allows you to directly connect to your audience.
It's called stim, it's called splitter.fm.
So you get to upload all your stims and it lets like listeners engage and like leave notes
and comment.
And it's kind of cool.
It would be even better with value for value integrated, but it's kind of like an attempt
to connect artists and build community around the artists with the listeners.
But yeah, Lawrence, the band is doing a lot of really cool stuff as far as like being indie
and kind of on the bleeding edge of like how music can and should be done in the social
world.
Splitter.fm.
I'm gonna have to check that out.
Yeah.
I'm gonna have to check that out.
Yeah, I think, you know, and another thing that I would bring up to this band that we're
talking to is kind of like what's going on in two weeks up in, oh, thanks.
Probably thanks for the note.
The box up in the chat is this thing that's going on in two weeks up in Minneapolis with
the Bitcoin meetup and the show at first Avenue with Anzac Estolo and just loud the ability
to livestream your show and have people send you Bitcoin to tip you while you're playing.
You know, you can't do that per se in YouTube.
You know, you can kind of hold up a QR code or you can have somebody in your team like
posting a Venmo thing constantly in the YouTube chat.
But I would tell this band that we're sitting there enjoying.
So guys, like next time you're like you're doing a live show, like why not broadcast that live
show over the internet and have people pay you directly in Bitcoin while you're playing.
World wide.
Yeah.
And I mean, one cool thing.
It's called LNURL.
You know, people listening that don't know about this Bitcoin innovation in music.
It's like, oh, God, another term.
What the hell is that?
It basically makes it simple where you can send Bitcoin an email format where it could
be like, yeah, like Bobby at voltage dot cloud or whatever.
And then I can just send you Bitcoin in real time.
And what's really fun is it allows you to people can just send it to you.
Like just nonstop.
You could say send it every minute, send it every few seconds.
Like, if I like something, you perform like your buddy shredded that six solo, I could
just double tap and it'll send more money.
Like it's so powerful.
And you brought up a good point with YouTube.
They give you these like bonuses or whatever, like super chats and it's like $5, $10.
Like that's pretty hefty, man.
Like I make, I make decent money, but that makes me a little sick to my stomach, like sending
someone five bucks.
Like I would rather send them like a quarter or 50 cents.
And when you do that, it's scale across thousands of people.
And it's not going to break the bank form, especially in an economic situation like we're
in now that can really add up.
Like you're on, you're on Noster and I see some folks on Noster every post they're making,
they're making like a dollar to two dollars and Bitcoin and that really adds up if you're
adding value to the community you're a part of.
Yeah, let me chime in and say something here then, Sean, I want to go to you.
But like there's a difference like to all the musicians that are listening to this.
Like, you know, if you're down on Broadway playing cover tunes for the tourists, it doesn't
matter if you're on Broadway.
Or if you're, you know, playing at the spa in Tacoma or if you're playing on the beach
down in Sarah Soto somewhere in that setting where the band is playing cover tunes and people
come up and throw tips in the tip jar.
You know, that's one thing.
But what we're talking about here is being compensated for your original music.
What we're talking about with value for value is when you put something out into the universe,
you should be, you should receive something in turn.
Like it's kind of like a digital tip jar, right?
And we're seeing this work.
We're seeing this happen.
You can go on the wavelength and you can see all of the, all the sats that people are
kidding.
And the, and the money that people are tipping these artists consistently.
And you're right, Bobby.
Like if you break it down for sats like maybe that are given more than 50 cents a buck or,
you know, five bucks a shot.
But the thousands and thousands of sats that keep strolling in, build up.
And that is what creates that, that side income for you.
Sean, what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah.
And here too, and I, you know, I, I always in these conversations try to remember that I
have never endeavored to make a living as a musician.
I often joke that because my father was a professional drummer, I went and got a computer
science degree.
But so I've never lived that life.
I've never, I've never been dependent upon my music as much as it is one of the greatest
joys of my life.
So all that to say, I try to be sensitive to the fact that I remember conversations with
so many of my musician friends here in Nashville and elsewhere.
I'm taking my one friend, Terry, who for the longest time, Bart ended three nights a week for
probably 15 years and, and covered the bills and gave himself the freedom to, to create,
to make music and film the rest of the week.
I raised that to say that I think it's all relative to how urgent that income is for them.
And so if, you know, if they are playing down a broad, and if that pays the bills, if they
are a server of our tender, and that pays the bills, then perhaps that gives them the opportunity
to invest in taking some chances.
And I think to me, this is what this comes down to.
Do they feel an urgency that they've got to use every moment of their time to, you know,
to achieve that sort of middle income musician status that I know a lot of, you know, people
and publications have written about over the last few years, or are they in a comfortable
enough place that they can, they can invest?
And so it's a long way of saying the musicians, the artists, the creators that I see that are
really, I think, to Bobby's previous point, taking advantage of being early, are those who
I get a sense have created, you know, enough stability for themselves to do it.
And so in other words, you know, it's, I don't think it's for us to say, hey, go do
this, go do this digital busking thing if you can't pay the rent.
So I think it's all relative to sort of where they are in their lives and in their careers.
But hopefully, you know, I think the outcome is that more people have got the opportunity
to make these bets and to be early and to establish themselves in a new sort of domain.
Yeah, there's such a lack of artists in the space, and there's a lack of quality music
in the space too.
So all right, so let me, let me play the role of the smart ass, know it all guitar player.
He just melted your face who knows more about being in a band than you guys do and whose brother
is a big NFT Ethereum dogecoin dude, right?
So Bobby, if I were to say, oh, yeah, you know what, like, this is, yeah, I'm not interested,
like what?
I, I, I, I want to see us go into Ethereum and NFTs.
I don't want to do Bitcoin.
I think it's, I think it's a joke.
Why should somebody take Bitcoin over Ethereum and NFTs, Bobby?
Yeah.
Um, so I mean, Bitcoin, there's no CEO.
There's no one throughout to choke.
It is actually decentralized.
I don't need to go into that because there's a million podcast people can go verify that is
objectively true, undebatable.
But I would also tell that person, secure your bag, do both of them.
You know, I have friends who sell NFTs and they're making thousands monthly selling them,
like music ones, like there's, there's huge communities for it.
Secure the bag in both areas, like I'm a Bitcoin or through and through, but I mean, if you're
trying to make money, like do you, you know, I'll tell you, I would help them how to do it
if they wanted to.
I'd be like, but Bitcoin's better if you were going to go get some Ethereum, like turn it
in a Bitcoin, but I know, I know people who are making tons of money in it.
And Ethereum music stuff.
So it's like, you know, I wouldn't try to stop them.
I would say, yeah, go get your money.
Like you need to do it.
You're a starving artist, right?
But I would say I would really try to build your brand and point all of your, all of your
listeners to the Bitcoin solution because feasibly it's going to be more interoperable long
term.
And if we want to go study history, you know, last cycle Ethereum was the big winner.
This cycle, it's Salana.
Like if these things keep changing every three to four years based on, you know, this new
faster chain with less security is easier to use, you know, you don't want to build your
house on sand.
You want to build your house on rock.
So go secure your bag with Ethereum, but you had better focus and build your brand around
Bitcoin and the interoperability of the Lightning network with the rest of the web.
And then I would hope that would spark their interest and we could really dive deeper
into like why Bitcoin?
Sean, why should I come over to Bitcoin when I think that Ethereum, NFTs are the right
choices?
Yeah, I mean, I think I would probably approach it from the standpoint that hey, if you're
comfortable with that fantastic promoter who serves you well until he runs off of half
of your income, if you're great with that major record label deal until they disclose
to you that you signed everything away in a 360 deal and they get, you know, they get
theirs first.
I mean, the point being, if you're willing to trust parties like that and you don't feel
like you need better protection or better options, then go for it, right?
If instead you would prefer to be in a situation where you cannot be rubbed, you cannot be
un-carnified, you can't have Hollywood accounting applied.
Oh, after the fact that I think Bitcoin, you know, is that approach and it's that solution.
But I think when you, you know, to your point about the persona, if you're dealing with someone
who's got it all figured out, Bobby's probably got the right approach, which is you go do
you.
But, you know, ultimately it's meet the new boss saying is the old boss, right?
Somebody's running a scam on you.
This time is called an NFT and if you think they aren't looking for an opportunity to take
advantage of you, then you've learned nothing.
Yeah.
Spot on.
I like the way he articulated that.
That was good.
Nice little, a, a, a, Daltry/Towns and reference for those for those youngsters who don't
know the lyrics of the who shame on you.
Homework, homework.
Yeah.
So I was kind of thinking like, and this is more of like a fun, fun question.
Like if you think about the classic artists, the classic musicians, the who stones, Johnny
Cash, Merle Hagger, like who do you think would have been, would have jumped all over this had
that, if they had the chance back in the day, right?
Like if you think about the, those legacy artists, like to me, Prince stands out, like Prince
would have been all over this market.
Prince would have, would have been all, but I, I'm wondering like, how would have, would
have, would have Johnny, would Johnny Cash have gotten into this or Chris Christofferson or,
and I say that kind of jokingly, but I also say it like because the, the, the major labels,
the, the legacy labels that, they're going to figure this out sooner or later.
And somebody who has their own catalog and is still signed to a major label, they're going
to start dumping their music in here.
But like who, as far as like major players, either active or long gone, who do you guys think
what would have been all over this if they had the opportunity to?
I'll jump in, man.
I would love to think and I'm certain I have seen a meme somewhere of Johnny Cash, which is
middle finger up and, and somebody, you know, put a Bitcoin symbol on it, but like, as, as
someone said, and I wish I could attribute it because I've forgotten that Bitcoin is punk.
And, you know, maybe, maybe Prince after the artist formerly, you know, known as, maybe
when he contractually threw his middle finger up to the label.
You know, it's, it seems to me anyone who's been sufficiently burned at the level and
that the just, just overall massive, massive wealth and success they had, but would just love
the uncompascatable nature of Bitcoin.
Bowie would have been all over this.
I think he was extremely early on the internet.
So I would, I would love to think that he would.
That's a great call out.
But Bowie, Iggy Pop, Henry Rawlings and Black Flag, I totally agree with you, Sean.
That's punk, right?
Sex pistols, the clash, revolting cocks, dead Kennedys.
You just, you just laid out my playlist for this weekend.
Thank you.
But, but all surfers, they would have been all over it, right?
Shaw, Bobby, who, who do you think like from a legacy standpoint, what would have been
all over this?
I think Rage of the machine might have liked it.
Obviously they're a little newer.
Um, good one.
And also, um, I feel like Queen or Elton John maybe, I feel like there were, there were
obviously a few other artists that were like, wildly taken advantage of by people in their
circle.
And to just be able to like do your art and not even have to deal with lawyers or people
or bankers or managers and money and it just shows up and you're like, I don't even want
to look at it until I need to purchase food or a house.
Like, I just, I imagine anyone that just had like a tough go in their career and a lot
of drama with people around them would have like truly loved it.
I think the statement you just uttered, Bobby is the elevator pitch who is a successful
artist.
Yeah.
You know, I, I, I think about, uh, my God, why don't I always forget the title, the, the
proper title, life's been good to me so far.
Um, is that the title?
Yeah, Walsh, but I always forget the actual, is that the title?
But you know, like that story, right?
Uh, anyone who's lived and felt that story to Bobby's point, I think it would immediately
connect.
So I think that's a, that, that to me, you just nailed the way to get through to, uh, to
an established artist, a successful artist.
I, I am, yeah, I'm, I'm so thankful for you guys for joining me on this because it's
given me a lot of, uh, things to think about as I work on my pitch, trying to bring
artists into this and you guys are so much, yeah, you guys have had to do the sales pitch.
Not for musicians, but just people calling, amboss and people calling, uh, voltage, you
know, you guys have to go Bitcoin 101 just probably every day in, in what your roles are.
So I really appreciate you guys taking the time to have this conversation.
I am, pleasure.
I, I, I am so excited about this opportunity.
Like for the first time in 30 years, I, I'm excited about the music industry again.
You know, I mean, I was a singer, songwriter in LA from, from 95 to 03, you know, just
banging away at trying to get on radio and trying to get gigs and I got lucky, man, I got,
you know, I, I was able to do more than most, but I genuinely believe, I, I believe this
with my whole heart and you, you guys, let me know if I'm wrong or if, if I'm off base.
I think there has never been a better time to be an independent musician.
Oh, hands down.
Yeah.
I mean, just seeing the stories of these young kids who like, they own their whole stack
of music, they're literally turning down labels left and right, offering them boo-coo money.
And they're making, you know, millions of quarter.
Like it's, it's phenomenal.
Like you, you go on tour when you want.
You control all of your, your portfolio of music and it's just everyone's going to copy
it.
It's like the only rational thing to do.
And it's great because you have the internet.
Like you can learn to mix and master on YouTube.
You can learn to make beats easily.
You can carry an instrument in your pocket.
Like it's nuts.
Like it's, it's such a good time for artists.
Yeah.
Sean.
I think I know Bobby, sorry, I was going to say Bobby as a, as a marketer will appreciate
this deeply.
But he just laid out and he's much closer to this certainly than I am.
And as you say, and it's been great to hear Bobby lay out some of these stories and these
artists is, I think that's what we need.
We need case studies, right?
And sort of classic product marketing terminology.
We need, we need the case studies that tell the stories of these successful independent
artists.
And hopefully, I don't know, I don't know, Bobby, if many of these are already, you know,
embracing value, Bitcoin, Noster, whatever.
But if there's a small, even a small subset, if we can find one or two who've reached that
level of success, I think that's, that's incredibly powerful.
And it invites people into a conversation where, you know, they're already seeing the, the
golden ring that they're reaching for.
And then the conversation sort of flows from there.
Yeah.
It's amazing.
I mean, Conor Price, Nick D. Lawrence the band.
There's a boatload of rappers, you know, that are doing it in the NFT and Ethereum space.
Sean, that young lady that we met a couple weeks ago, you read my mind.
I was thinking about her.
Yeah, but I let up.
Is that her name?
I believe so.
Yeah.
I've been trying to get her on.
I've been trying to get her on the show.
I mean, she's doing, well, she's got a Miami right now doing like the, the bozzle, our
thing.
She had a command.
And I think, you know, not, not too big of a signature, but I think the reason I thought
of her and, and then, you know, she's doing most of it on Ethereum within a tease.
We might like that to be otherwise.
But as Bobby said, you know, go, go do what you got to do is she had to me such a command
of her work in her career and what she is doing.
There was, there was no question, no question to me in her mind as to what she's going to
do next.
And that, that to me is incredibly inspiring as opposed to, and I get it.
And this is not me, you know, trying to take anybody down, but these conversations with artists
where it is, I'm waiting for X to do Y.
I'm waiting for a manager to do this.
I'm waiting for this call, I'm waiting for this introduction.
This young woman was waiting on no one.
Yeah.
And I think that's extremely powerful.
Yeah.
I mean, this is, this is no different than any other industry.
You know, you got to get out there and take it.
And I think that artists, we all love the fact that we're creating art and it's, and the
art is, is the goal of the artist to bring people together and the goal of the, of the
artist to create bridges and to, and hopefully with more art comes more world peace, right?
I mean, I just, you know, that is, that is the full on hippie in me coming out.
And that's one of the reasons why I love music and being an artist and what music does and
the cultural bridges that it brings people together.
But what I see so many artists forgetting is that the unfortunate, ugly truth is that
this is dog eat dog competition.
You know, I mean, you have to treat this like, like it's any other business just because
you're, you're singing about love and, and, and heartbreak and everything else doesn't
mean this is not a business and, and value for value, Bitcoin, putting your music out in
this space gets you a leg up in an, in arguably the most difficult business to get into
period, you know, but I think too, too many artists forget that.
They're like, it's all about the love and the peace in the community.
Yeah.
But, you know, you got to get out there and kick some ass business life.
100% and I think, you know, from, from the sales of marketing standpoint, again, perhaps
too often my brain works in funnels and at the top of the funnel, I would argue that it's
never been easier to get into the music industry.
Oh, yeah.
And it is incredibly challenging to make it to them, let's say the middle of the funnel,
right?
To make it to a point where you're, you're sustainable.
And I, I keep coming back throughout our conversation to what would be possible in speaking to an
artist, what would be possible if you're money?
Can believe this out.
We're, we're unfilial with, right?
You know, what if all the people, all the stories that you've heard and all the things that
can and do go wrong?
What if you could rest well at night knowing your money was secure?
And I think, you know, there's a lot that unfold whether it's the basement that is Bobby very
eloquently laid out at the beginning, purchasing power, but not to say that, you know, Bitcoin
by definition protects from, from schemers and crooks, but I think there's a powerful message
to say, you know, picking up on what you just laid out, you can do more.
You can put more energy and time and focus into your art, you know, when your money is,
secure and safe and not being debased.
Yeah, somebody's going to break through from this base.
All right, Bobby, final thoughts.
Let me go.
Have we, have we convinced this, this amazing band we just saw here in Nashville?
Have we, is there anything else you, you feel compelled?
Do you have to tell them to, to bring them into the wonderful world of Bitcoin?
Yeah, I would say, I really hope we left this band or person with more questions than answers
because this is very early and they need to be asking questions and learning more and
influencing how this thing is going to develop because it's open source software and for folks
not aware of what that means.
It's the, though, you know, they say the world is oyster or whatever, like this technology
is so early.
Like anyone who has a little bit of an audience or any kind of pool, they have a massive opportunity
to influence how it operates in the outcome of it.
And that's important, you know, it, you might not be necessarily motivated to like earn money
directly, but you're going to transform the fabric of how any and every artist potentially
earns money over the future of the internet.
And if that aligns with your heart and your mission as a creative, you should definitely
ask more questions and just get involved with the groups of people innovating this and
hopefully that inspires them.
It's gone.
Final thoughts.
Anything we missed.
What you're, you're parting word to the band is they're loading up their guitars in that
beat up Dodge van before they head down to Little Rock for a gig.
Listen to what Bobby said.
I mean, that's, that's hard to follow, but I mean, sincerely, I think it's, it's, it's
both tactically to the shrewd and also genuinely, I think spot on to appeal not only to their
near-term game, but to what they are participating in and growing and building as, as one in a community
of artists.
And I think it's, it's an excellent point to call out that we are early, you know, but so
were those who were extraordinary early to streaming.
And they had outsized gains from that as well.
But I think the difference here is that it is being built in a way that ultimately the artist
has control.
And that's been promised in them many times, but I think this time we have got a way to
demonstrate that it is so.
Awesome.
All right, fellas.
Bobby, tell everybody what, I should have done this at the beginning and I apologize, but
we'll do it here at the end.
We tell everybody what voltage is and where they can find you and employ voltage and give
us the 30 second voltage elevator pitch.
Yeah, voltage is a all in one Bitcoin development platform where devs, engineers, anyone can
come and get access to everything in the Bitcoin to build, integrate it into your product,
analytics, liquidity, just all of that.
So if you want to create a solution like this, where you want to go and we love amboss,
we're very close with them.
They have probably one of the best products that lightning needs right now.
So speak highly of them.
And you want to connect with me.
I'm on Twitter X at at I Bobby shell, like the iPhone at I Bobby shell.
And I'm always on LinkedIn talking about Bitcoin.
So feel free to say, hey, there.
Yeah, you've got some great content, man.
I love your coins.
So all right, Sean, you got, you got 30 seconds.
What's the, what's the amboss elevator pitch?
What do you guys do?
Yeah, so thank you, Bobby, for that.
And so as Bobby noted for for voltage with a focus on builders, amboss, likewise serves
what we tend to call node runners.
And so in short, we aren't necessarily something that's out there to serve, you know, the typical
consumer.
But if you are endeavoring to build out lightning infrastructure, hopefully with our friends
at voltage, then we provide a number of tools, analytics, data, and services to help you
do so in a more cost efficient, smarter way.
So we are the leading data analytics company for the lightning network and have a whole host
of other products that are coming down the pipe next year.
You can find me primarily on Nostrad using either primal.net/sjhawn or just my, uh,
Nostrad, which is Sean at Sean Yeager.com.
Awesome.
Yeah, I would, you know, to all of the musicians who hopefully hear this show, I would highly
encourage you guys to follow Bobby show on Twitter and LinkedIn and anywhere else and follow Sean
Yeager on Nostrad because both of these guys are spitten bars about technology and Bitcoin
and you're gonna, when you first start out, it's gonna be way over your head.
But don't worry, just hang in there because these guys are both spitten bars and just leaving
pearls every day online.
And I have learned a lot from these guys and Bobby, thank you once again for having me on
your podcast a couple of weeks ago, you know, talking about, um, value for value and musicians
and all that kind of stuff.
And, fellas, hope you have a great weekend.
Sean, you sounded fantastic, man, I know you're fighting a cold, but you sounded like a million
bucks.
Thank you to what do we have here, my cold and flume hats.
Thank you.
Appreciate it.
It was a real pleasure, guys.
Have a great weekend.
All right.
Thanks, Bobby.
We'll see you guys later.
Talk to you soon.
Cheers.
Bye, oh.
So there you have it.
My thanks to Bobby Show and Sean Yeager for joining me in that fun conversation about
bringing unsigned artists into the Bitcoin space and taking full advantage of value for value.
For all of you unsigned artists, independent artists out there, here's another cool thing
about value for value.
On the back end of this podcast, thanks to guys like Adam Curry and Dave Jones and Stephen
B and all of the developers in the podcasting 2.0 index world.
Here is something called wallet switching technology, which means that if a song is played
on this show, I can switch the wallet to have all of the sats for that song go directly
to the artist while the song is playing in the same way that if I wanted to, I could cut
up every section of the show and when Sean is talking, all the sats go to Sean or when
Bobby is talking, all of the sats go to Bobby.
It's one of the really cool things that you can do with the wallet switching technology
that is a part of podcasting 2.0 and there are specific apps that you have to use like
fountain and pod fans and podverse and curiocaster, things like that.
That is inherent for you to understand with respect to how important and how groundbreaking
this technology is.
One of the guests on today's show has decided to donate the sats that he earned by coming
on the show to Zap.Stream, specifically an individual named Kieran who has been instrumental
with bringing live music to the Noster world.
The Noster is another social media platform that we're going to have a different show
on and we'll talk about that later.
But one of the things that you can do is you can donate your sats to other people.
Why?
Because they're putting their life into the universe.
They're putting their work out there for everybody for the betterment of the Bitcoin community
just like you guys are putting your art out in the world for the betterment of the world
right?
And you should be compensated for that.
So you can also donate your sats.
You can also say, hey man, you know when my song is playing, I want it to go to have a
tattoo for humanity of Atlanta or hey man when my song is playing, I want it to go to
this, you know, indigenous group down in South America who's making quilts and pulling themselves
out of poverty.
That's some of the cool stuff that you can do with value for value, with the wallet splitting
technology that is enabled in the podcasting 2.0 world.
So I hope you will take the time to dive into that and to understand it.
Look up at them, Curry, look up Dave Jones, look up Steven Bees, Emporium of podcast tools,
start diving around in Noster.
There's a lot of amazing tools that are going to transform your ability as a small business
owner which is what you are being an independent musician.
These tools are going to transform your ability to succeed.
And as Bobby said, secure your bag man, go for it.
Go for it.
So a lot of cool stuff coming up in the Bitcoin 2.0 podcasting index, Noster, RSS world.
Of course the big thing is these shows coming up in Minneapolis and big shout out to open
Mike up there at first Avenue Minneapolis who is putting his life on the line making sure
these shows happen.
The dude is amazing.
A shout out to you sir for all the work you're doing on the back end.
For anybody who's interested in supporting those shows or live streaming those shows, if
you go over to ainsleycostelo.com, I know that she has all of the information there where
you can check out the live streams of her performances as well as performances from just loud.
And you should go to our artist, our interview from last week or the week before and check
out the review that we did with those two.
Right?
Okay, all shut up.
Thanks to the guests.
Thank you guys for listening.
Don't forget to smile for the mug shot.
See you.
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