(upbeat music)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Phantom Power Business Hour.
Today is Monday March 18th,
and my guest is a full-time singer songwriter
here in Nashville and a Tennessee native
by the name of Bonner Black.
I thought it would be a lot of fun for you guys
to hear what it takes on a daily basis
to make a living as a singer songwriter here in Nashville
and Bonner's one of the best at it.
She is a completely independent artist.
I first saw her at City Winery four years ago
and been hooked ever since, I think she's fantastic.
We're gonna talk about songwriting,
we're gonna talk about social media,
we're gonna talk about the entrepreneurial shift
that it requires the hustle, all of it.
We're gonna start it off with a single
from her latest record and this single is called
"Bloved Looks" and then we'll get to the interview.
Cool.
Here we go.
"Love Looks" by Bonner Black
on the Phantom Power Business Hour.
(upbeat music)
♪ I heard a poem about you turning my back ♪
♪ Before the case I twist the lock on the door ♪
♪ And I believe it was like breathing ♪
♪ And the weekend was enough ♪
♪ We sat so skeptical across each other ♪
♪ On our first day at that French place ♪
♪ So generous a quote ♪
♪ But wow, oh my God, are you July ♪
♪ 'Cause you're so hot, I want everything you got ♪
♪ Give me everything you got ♪
♪ I find more for the wind and just to beat it ♪
♪ If you should forgive you all my body heat ♪
♪ Rub your back and cook your dinner ♪
♪ I'm rather once but I'm a hush ♪
♪ Thank God I found you dead and so dumb ♪
♪ And I found it ♪
♪ It's hard to be like that ♪
♪ I'm never going back ♪
♪ Love looks good on us ♪
♪ You're the color of the phone ♪
♪ But you just will get up ♪
♪ I feel it and you touch me like that ♪
♪ I'm never going back ♪
♪ Baby I'm never going back ♪
♪ Before your kiss I now risk heartache for no one ♪
♪ Now you got me on my knees, plan your mind ♪
♪ We only fight when you reach for your ball ♪
♪ It's like please it's our need ♪
♪ I insist where you go ♪
♪ Love looks good on us ♪
♪ Thank God I found you dead and so dumb ♪
♪ And I found it ♪
♪ It's hard to be like that ♪
♪ I'm never going back ♪
♪ Love looks good on us ♪
♪ You're the color of the phone ♪
♪ You're just waking up ♪
♪ I'm never going to touch me like that ♪
♪ I'm never going back ♪
♪ Baby I'm never going back ♪
♪ Love looks good on us ♪
♪ You're the color of the phone ♪
♪ When you touch me like that ♪
♪ I'm never going back ♪
♪ Love looks good on us ♪
♪ You're the color of the phone ♪
♪ When you touch me like that ♪
♪ I'm never going back ♪
♪ And when they get back to your house ♪
♪ We can cuddle on the couch ♪
♪ Watch Eminem and pity ♪
♪ And when nobody else around ♪
♪ Side will pick, and you're so cute ♪
♪ Sleepy head, I'm much as close to you ♪
♪ Instagram and a family group chat ♪
♪ Baby I'm so proud of you ♪
♪ Love looks good on us ♪
♪ Thank God I found you dead and so dumb ♪
♪ And I'm never going to touch me like that ♪
♪ I'm never going back ♪
♪ Love looks good on us ♪
♪ You're the color of the phone ♪
♪ And you're just waking up ♪
♪ I know in here it's hard to be like that ♪
♪ I'm never going back ♪
♪ Baby I'm never going back ♪
♪ And when you touch me like that ♪
♪ I'm never going back ♪
♪ And when you touch me like that ♪
♪ I'm never going back ♪
♪ Baby it's hard to be like that ♪
♪ I'm never going back ♪
♪ When you touch me like that ♪
♪ I'm never going back ♪
- All right, welcome to the fan of power business hour
and you just heard "Love looks" and then "In parentheses."
Never going back by Bonner Black, who is our guest today.
Bonner is one of my favorite independent artists here
in Nashville.
She's a native of Tennessee.
She moved to Nashville when she was 17
to pursue a career in songwriting and singing
and she started touring shortly after that.
She's got about 500 gigs underneath her belt,
opened up for Charlie Daniels, Banned Perry,
and is pushing about a million streams
on Spotify and iTunes for her body of work.
She also made four trips to DC on behalf of NSAI,
which is Nashville Songwriters Association
to Longer for Lobby, excuse me,
for a stronger copyright protection and advocate
for songwriters.
She's got a great social media presence.
She's one of my favorite writers
and I have seen her live twice
and will testify in court that she's awesome.
So Bonner, welcome.
- Hello, thank you for having me.
- Yeah.
- Lovely intro.
- Well, it was a little long-winded
and I stumbled on it,
but who knows, maybe I'll chop it up a little bit.
- No, gas me up.
It's funny, I actually only have about,
I think now total 700,000 streams on Spotify.
So I'm inching my way to that million, but...
- Well, I think if you take that 700,
it's probably safe to say
that you've probably got the same over on iTunes.
So...
- Yeah, I gotta look up the full numbers today.
I was trying to do that yesterday.
It's hard to find a central location
for all of the data.
- Well, that's, isn't that part of the joy of being
in the independent position of not really knowing
what the hell is going on with your streams, right?
- No, never.
- I wanna talk about your new record
that you did with Jake from The Foxies.
We'll get to that in a little bit,
but I wanted to start with your business acumen
with your entrepreneurial spirit.
Tell us a little bit about your trips to DC
for lobbying your work with NSAI
and the impact that that's had on your career.
- Yeah, so I met Bart Herbison,
who's the director of NSAI when I was 15 years old.
I'd gone to NSAI and I was supposed to be having a meeting
with one of the membership reps
and I had braces and side bangs
and I played this little hot pink sparkly,
Daisy Rock guitar and I don't know if you ever met Bart,
but he is the most passionate person on music row,
just a very eccentric and smart, passionate person
and he walks downstairs and he sees me and he goes,
"What do you got there?"
And I was like, "Oh, it's my guitar."
And he goes, "Well, why don't you play me a song?"
And I played him this song, which to me now listening back,
I'm like, "Oh gosh."
So A, I was like totally ripping off Taylor Swift.
- That's all right.
- And B, you know, it was just a cheesy little song written
by a homeschooled 14 year old, you know?
- Yeah.
- But Bart saw something in me and he kind of took me
under his wing and his main role is to represent songwriters
on music row to Congress and Senate
and to advocate for things like copyright law, royalties,
a lot of legal matters that are pressing to songwriters.
- Yeah.
- And so he had this lobbying tactic that he wanted to use
where basically he would have me come in
my cute little young adorable self
with my whole life ahead of me,
have me play a couple songs,
pull at the heartstrings of these representatives
and then hit him with, "Hey, we don't pass this new copyright law,
which at the time he was working in the early stages
on the Music Modernization Act."
If we don't fix this, young sweet bonner is,
her career is gonna be dead, she's not gonna make any money
as a songwriter and she's gonna be living on the streets,
you know, kind of--
- This cute little girl is gonna be destitute eating rats
that she finds in the streets of Nashville.
You heartless bastards.
- That was basically the lobbying tactic and it worked.
I mean, I really, you know, I worked these rooms and playing
for people like, you know, the legendary senator,
Olympia Snow.
You know, people like that.
So anyways, it was a wild and it was such a cool experience
for me as a high schooler.
I mean, I went between, you know, the ages of like 15 and 16,
four trips around there.
And I was homeschooled, so field trips weren't really a thing
other than I mean, just going to Nashville all the time.
So that was a really cool field trip.
I mean, we were walking up and down,
taking meetings with congresswomen and men and senators,
constantly, I mean, I had these like little shoes.
I remember my mom had to go into a wall green
to get me mule skin because my heels were literally bleeding
because of, and but what was so amazing was to watch Bart
Herbison, I don't, I can't, he cannot get enough credit
for music row for what he does.
He is so tireless and so passionate.
He will corner these people.
I watched Bart corner these representatives in the cafeteria
and no one fights harder for songwriters than him.
And it just, it was such an incredible experience for me.
And it also definitely taught me a little bit about negotiation.
Yeah, bonner black political pond.
I was happy to be upon.
I was honored to be a political pond for, for Bart.
I have never met Bart.
My daughter has and my wife has and they say the same things about him.
He's just absolutely charming and an amazing advocate for writers.
And I obviously, if you've been in Nashville for a little while,
you know, in a say I, and you know how important they are.
But for, you know, for the, for the songwriters and the people
in, in the Bitcoin community who are listening, what is the MLC?
Can you explain it to them, please?
I actually don't know.
I don't know what the MLC is.
I think my manager has an account set up with me,
but I'll be quite honest with you.
I'm out of touch with all of the admin step as far as like I do
like a little feature F M stuff because that's what I get my
pre-save links and distribution from.
Right.
I've been in the MLC because I get monthly statements from them.
Yeah.
But to be honest, I've never, I haven't looked that far.
I mean, it's, it's what it does is it collects the royalties
under licenses from Spotify and iTunes and things like that.
And pay songwriters, composers, lyricists and music publishers.
It's, you know, you should sign up for it in addition to signing up
with ASCAP or BMI.
Yeah.
I was working with a manager all last year and she handled
pretty much all the admin for this album.
But it's funny because I do feel like at this point,
when it comes time for me to collect my money every like three,
four months when I go in there, I have like four, five websites
that I go through.
It's like, just okay, I have money in my tone, tree bank.
I get my check from C-SAC.
MLC, I will go in there and like do the, whatever it's distributing.
Sometimes I like completely lose track of where all the money is
because it is kind of wild in songwriting and in music.
You're getting paid.
He's kind of like micro pennies.
Yeah.
And in so many different places.
Well, you hit on all the folks who are listening,
who are supporters of Bitcoin and getting musicians
paid in Bitcoin.
You hit on something which is really big.
These four or five different places that you have to go to to get
all of the data for your music, all of these middlemen
for lack of a better term.
All of this, everybody that you have to deal with is behind a walled
garden.
You don't necessarily have all of the information that you need
to properly account for your income, for your art.
But what's happening, and you and I were talking a little bit about this
before the interview started, what's happening now with Bitcoin
and getting your music up in the RSS feeds is that instantaneous payment.
That kind of eliminates a lot of those other relationships.
But yeah, to me, that's one of the biggest struggles that musicians face is just
getting honest data on what's going on with their streams and the music that they put out.
Yes.
What do you think is the biggest struggle that songwriters and performers face today?
Not just in Nashville, but just as an industry?
To be quite honest, I think it's not.
A technical problem, I think it's a mental problem.
I think it is lately, even some of the most successful and up-and-coming songwriters
who have just signed publishing deals, just by and record deals have had viral things happen
to them.
It's feeling enough and feeling like your art is important and valuable and actually needed
feeling that positivity and encouragement to keep going.
I think because we have such a complicated industry and there are so many different areas
that you can be successful.
And well, yeah, I have a lot of TikTok followers, but on this thing, I'm not touring though,
where I've been touring, but I can't get my social media up or whatever.
I think it's so hard these days to have a gauge on what is successful.
For me, my baseline of success has always been just figure out how to pay my bills, making
music, just be a professional musician for a living.
And once I get to that baseline, I'm like, "Okay, I'm comfortable."
And then after that, it's like, all right, let's take this as far as we can possibly go.
So honestly, I know that's sort of a broad answer, but I do think it's really hard for
artists right now to gauge success to figure out what goals they should be reaching, what
goals are meaningful and staying positive.
It is amazing that, you know, if you look at this just from a business perspective, like it's
amazing that anybody would jump in and decide to do this, right?
Because if you're lucky, you get $100, $150, $200, a gig for your original music, right?
If you're lucky.
Now that's different than going down a Broadway and, you know, playing cover tunes for three
hours.
Yeah, yeah.
So you're, if you're lucky, you make $150, $150, a gig.
And you can't do that every night as an independent because the audience is just not there.
If you're lucky, you make .005 cents on a stream from Spotify, right?
Then you, and so already you're in the hole and then you spend anywhere from $1,500 to $4,000
per song, getting it produced here in town, right?
And then you have to completely change gears from being a songwriter and then become a
content creator for everything you're doing on Instagram and TikTok.
So God, man, you've got to absolutely love this, you know, because you're starting out
in a deficit.
Like if you took that business model where you really have no control over your income
stream and moved it over to an engineering company or a food company and tried to take
the idea to Shark Tank, they'd be like, you're nuts.
You have no income stream.
Why the hell would we invest in this?
Right?
Yeah.
It is all about being crafty and creative and knowing your craft and knowing your market.
Like for me, you know, like the live show thing, it can be such an array.
Like I can go play a private show and make a couple grand and in general, that's usually
like an hour or two.
And I usually split like halfway between, you know, covers and original goals on that.
I can go play these listening rooms and I've been paid up until like $400 to $500 for
that plus if you have merch, you can make your money off of merch.
I think it's like knowing, even though it just talks about like there's so many different places
that you have all this streaming split up.
I have friends that make money going live on TikTok and Instagram reels.
I've done that as well.
I do get a payout from TikTok doing brand deals like talking about being a content creator.
I got hired by a brand last year to make two 30-second TikToks.
Nice.
Good for you.
And I got paid too grand for that.
So there is ways to make money as an artist.
You just have to, I think, be open to everything, open to, I mean, you know, obviously we talked
about household sucking.
A lot of the cover gigs can be in space.
Yeah.
You know, those don't pay incredibly, but I think I've always just tried to be excited and
take what I can get.
And I'll play like a private gig somewhere that pays a couple grand that maybe like no one's
really listening to me, but I'm also getting kind of fat or something.
And then use that opportunity of like, okay, well, I'm already close to Atlanta.
I'll play a club where I might break even, but I made money this other gig.
And so I'm kind of forward to play this one.
I'll make some like real fans merge content, kind of, kind of do things like that.
So I think it's, it's tough and it's an uphill battle, but there is a lot of money in music.
And I'm not making like a crazy ton of money.
But I have been starting to see that if you are willing to kind of have your hand in a
lot of baskets and be open to doing a lot of things, you can get yourself in this position
where it's like, that is your, your daily life.
Yeah.
And you do a great job on social media too.
You're self deprecating humor.
Nice mix of, of your music with your humor, like the post you had, I think it was within
the last day about meeting Chris Daughtry.
Oh my gosh, it was, it was morning.
That was so first.
Yeah.
But also like you incorporate your hobbies into your social media too.
We're watching, bird watching.
Bird watching.
Yeah.
In the audience, but this is your sign to buy parabenoculars and go bird watch.
It will bring you so much joy and it will make you a better person.
Not so much.
I am, I will say, like I'm surprised at what I see just around my house up here in Henderson
Bill, like I mean, I don't know what the hell I'm looking at, but blue jays and robins and
little yellow things and finches and everything else.
I'm like, God, there's a menagerie up here.
Then me, all your bird pictures, everybody send me your bird pictures.
I will identify them.
It's just such a fun thing.
And I do love posting about it too because oddly enough, now when people see birds, they
think of me and I didn't do this on purpose, but people see birds a lot.
So it's kind of a nice tactic of like a way to get people to think about you, you know,
like if you were all of a sudden start making a hobby and like for leave clovers and really
made it a known thing and every time someone sees a for leave clover, they think about you.
Yeah.
So maybe it's maybe bird watching is an untapped streaming marketing tactic.
It could be covert, right?
Political pawn slash covert operations, but you incorporated it well into your merchandise
too because the last gig that I saw you at a couple of weeks ago, you've got birds on your
t-shirts too.
So like you've done a nice job of merging your passion out your hobby, excuse me, with your
day job, right?
Of being able to do that.
Yeah.
I've been really intentional about that and I want to keep doing that.
So to that merged design, I actually designed that myself and that's another thing of like
talking about, you know, being open to doing a lot of things and I ended up just learning
graphic design over the last two years to not only stay funny, but to just be able to
go from like a thought in my head and to just be able to make it.
And I also think that it's really healthy when your daily tasks are diversified, you know,
like I'm have ADHD.
So really if I'm like only tracking for all day or only doing one thing all day, it doesn't
really work for my brain.
So I like having lots of different things and it did save money.
So I did this design that was around a lyric in my song that was nothing makes sense without
a sense of humor and then it was a nature scene with birds on it.
I put a sand piper on there.
I put a great blue hair and to my favorite birds and a barn swallow, which is my favorite
bird.
And what I want to continue to do is sort of make nature a part of my brand to be able
to play certain like outdoor festivals and things like that.
And also I know people who hike and who are kind of like your crunchy granola people and
like Colorado Massachusetts Vermont.
My home state Colorado.
Like older baby people who love to be outside are just my people.
I eventually want to get in with the auto bond society because my nickname is bond.
So it's like an auto bond.
Oh, dude.
Yeah.
And then I have a merch idea too.
I want to do a bird watching starter kit that has like bond oculars like.
Yeah.
So it's all part of like wanting to.
Yeah, get people to listen to my music and stuff like that, but also kind of get a little
community together and hopefully maybe set up an opportunity to like do some really cool
unique outdoor shows or do these things where it's like eventually when I tour.
Have a VIP package where it's like that morning of the show like we all meet up and go bird
watching, you know, oh my God, that's brilliant.
So yeah, there's a lot of things.
There's a lot of things you can do with it.
And then you just sort of like set your like if you can like find ways to connect with your
fan base on a personal level or just their things that you actually enjoy, you kind of just
I like I hope that through doing this, I'm setting myself up to just kind of have this
like fun little life with fun.
That is.
Man, you have taken that to a whole new level like holy crap.
It's a work it's still work in progress like I'm thinking about how to map it out, but the
merchant design is just like the beginning of that manifested dream.
That's fantastic.
That is that is fantastic put put a QR code on the binoculars that goes you know that
goes straight to your website, right?
That is that's really great.
Yeah, that but you know what?
That's the hustle.
That's what you got to do.
You know, yeah, to be successful, impressive man, really really impressive.
Yet you mentioned tick-tock or earlier and of course the big news in the last 72 hours has
been Congress talking about banning it.
You know, they've got six months to sell it, sell it to an American company or it's going
to be, um, court and quote, shut down turned off like what what what are your thoughts about
that?
Do you think it's going to happen?
Do you like how valuable is it to independent musicians?
In this day and age of social media people are going to find a way to connect and find music.
So I think these platforms are kind of a nice vessel, but they will ebb and flow.
Some will sink, some will rise if tick-tock goes down, there will be another tick-tock.
Where Instagram reels like really capitalizes and like Instagram becomes like the absolute
like vocal thing.
Snapchat could have a rise.
YouTube shorts, you know, YouTube has always been such a king for resource anyways.
Like, I mean, I don't know if I were like YouTube and Snapchat, I'd just be praying for
the downfall of tick-tock.
Um, personally as a human being, I don't think tick-tock is serving the people.
It's definitely given me an opportunity to reach new people, but I think sometimes it can
do more harm than good as far as, you know, what all this is doing to our brains and, you
know, just straight from, you know, scientists and doctors.
So I feel like, you know, if it stays, I'm going to use it to serve whatever purpose I need
for it.
And if it goes, I'm going to just hop on whatever's next, you know, but I really don't know.
I can't, I honestly cannot see tick-tock getting banned.
It is such a powerful tool right now.
And I think people are making a lot of money off of it and advocating for it, but it will
be interesting to see what happens.
And I think that we might, it might be a beneficial thing if it were to be banned, but I think
if it's not, I think people just need to start accepting that social media is here and
it's here to stay and figure out how to have a healthy relationship with it and make it
serve you and don't let it control you.
Like being educated consumer, we're getting smacked in the face with ads all the time, probably
not great for our brain, but just be educated on how these ads are reaching out to you and
how the algorithms are working and don't participate in being hateful on there.
Don't participate in, you know, trolling or making mean comments and, you know, engage
on violence, content.
It will be interesting to see what it does, but I think I'm more interested in like how
are we as a society coping and adapting to this new world?
I get you.
Well, there's, you know, you and I are going to have a separate conversation after the
fact, you know, talking about Bitcoin and music and all this kind of stuff, but there is
a platform out there, open source protocol, no censorship, no walled gardens, no ads
being shoved down your throat.
It's called Noster, N-O-S-T-R, and you and I will have a separate conversation about it,
but I think you, and that is critical for the success of any musician who is putting
their music up into this space, but we'll talk more about that because there's some really
cool stuff going on over there.
There's even some people who are doing bird watching in Notion.
It's not only you, bird watching is about to sweep the nation.
We got to get more connected to nature people.
I promise you, I don't have, I get my best ideas when I'm in the woods.
I swear, like, I'll be sitting at home so frustrated with whatever, you know, issue of
the day I'm dealing with.
And when I just say screw it and I go get into the woods all the time, I just get the idea.
Yeah, well, my favorite quote from a musician is from Chakowsky who said, you know, inspiration
is not a guest.
It comes to those who seek it.
I love that.
So I did ballet for a long time and I did the Nutcracker.
I was clarin in the Nutcracker when I was nine.
Yeah, I wanted to ask you about being a ballerina.
I'm sorry.
Oh, no, I was just going to say, um, while the flowers is still just, I don't know, it just
brings that nostalgic joy to me.
And there's something about his music that's just very, it's like a deep, beautiful
well of emotion versus like Beethoven or Mozart, which is like, like red waves to me almost,
but there's something to check off the, it can be like a very like deep well of sorrow
mixed with better sweet joy.
I think a lot of that has to do with the persecution that he was under.
You know, I, Mozart, to me is, is very tactical.
You know, you can break down, you know, if you talk about it from, from a music theory standpoint,
there was some very specific rules that, that he followed and most composers of the day
followed.
Beethoven, to me, is fascinating because of his transition from classical into the romantic
era.
And you can see the line in his compositions, be it on the piano or be it symphonic, how
it, how, how he really was at the forefront of changing those trends from the end of the
classical era into the romantic era.
And then Chakowski, you know, there's just something about that Slavic blood, that Slavic
influence of his music and the persecution that he was under.
And I say that because not a lot of people know this, but he, he was gay.
And I think that a lot of that, and it's, you know, especially in 18, 19th century Russia
at the time.
I mean, it was never acceptable.
But I think a lot of the passion that comes from Chakowski's music is not only of just
coming from the Slavic influences, but also the persecution that he was under and the
discrimination that he was under.
And he just poured it all into his music.
But yeah, I appreciate Italian kills me every time.
Yeah.
I mean, my, my first spark of love for music was classical music, like paired with the movement.
And I loved classical ballet so much.
I did love the technicality of it and how, how beautiful, and delicate and gentle it was and
how hard it was.
I did love the challenge.
And I love, like, holding one pose and you're trying to look so beautiful and so gentle and
so effortless.
And that smile, you're looking so graceful.
But every muscle in your body is tense and there's like a pin sticking in, like, you're
back and there's like a bobby pin that's sticking into your head and there's like a sweat that's
like falling into your mascara.
But like, still, you know, doing it.
I just loved ballet so much and I think classical music and classical music melodies have
greatly influenced my music and the places that I go with my melodies.
I had one of the questions that I had for you is, how did your time as a ballerina
shape your, or how, how has it influenced your work as a songwriter and a singer?
And I think that you've answered that.
Well, ballet definitely taught me a lot of discipline.
Yeah.
Artistic director, Clinton Rothwell, studied under British Nikov and he danced for the
National Ballet of Canada and the Royal Ballet and he was so good to us and so encouraging
and taught us so many life lessons, but he was very, very, very tough on us.
And I think I learned, I learned that reward of like when you put in the hard work and yes
it may be uncomfortable and yes it may be tough, but when you, when you love it and you
perform it and you end up being able to do that, you know, that pirouette or that grand jute
that like just right, it's so rewarding and that's just kind of how I feel about music is
showing up and showing up on time and doing it rights and learning and training in it and
then just passion.
Like he was, like he was so passionate and I really was passionate about ballet and I do
it.
I think ultimately it was just like I love the stage, I love music, I love to move, like
I've just always, I've loved all of it and I learned passion with discipline at that
time in my life that I think I've carried over into being, you know, a songwriter.
Yeah.
That's a great answer.
I can understand.
Yeah, I get it, you know, the discipline that that ballet requires and how that, yeah,
that's it.
Yeah, no, that's, I mean, it's, it makes perfect sense.
It makes perfect sense.
Well, let's talk a little bit about this, this new record that you've got coming out, hopeless
romantics or romantics, I guess is the proper way to say it.
And Jake Olbaum, who is known around town as being with the Foxes, which is just a kickass
pop rock band.
Okay.
Produced it, right?
Yes.
And then I think he and I wrote eight of the songs together, two of them I wrote by myself.
And I don't know, I mean, I, I had released my EP and I showed up two over Hercule one
day with this artist that we were playing a show and we were going to share bands.
So we had one band that went into all of our songs and Jake was, was in that band and
after rehearsal, he and I got to talking about the Foxes and we started talking about Rust
and Kelly, which at the time was one of my favorite songwriters, like I had been listening
to dying Star-R-Wat and that was really influencing some of the music that I was writing.
I had done a cover of his song, mock, I did a couple covers of his song and he followed
me on Instagram.
He is so fucking good.
God.
So good.
Why don't just one of my favorite writers.
And Jake had actually played keys for him for a minute and Jake was like, yeah, he's like,
I could totally hear you doing stuff.
He's like, we should, we should write.
So we got together and we wrote Catch 22.
That's the third track on my hope with the emphasis on the antics album.
And I just loved that song so much and writing with him was, he just created such a safe and
open, good environment for me to write in just his, the places he would go musically.
Jake studied at Berkeley and has been, sorry, that is my friend's dog shaking her collar.
He's just so brilliant what he does.
So I feel like he challenged my melodies in a great way and it was just a, it was a great
collaboration.
We just started writing nonstop after that and we just kind of, we're on a roll.
I wrote Breaking a Sweat and take me on when I was out in LA.
I had the first chorus and verse of Breaking a Sweat in a little voice memo as I kind of
wrote that like a little beach boys vibe.
I wrote all of Take Me On and then I brought those two back from LA to him and he immediately
got into producing.
I take me on and we finished, we finished up the bridge and tweaked the chorus on Breaking
a Sweat and then just songs kind of kept pouring from there and it was around the fourth
or fifth one that he was like, dude, let's,
let's make an album, let's just do it.
And we were going to do eight songs because that's the fair minimum.
We ended up throwing on either way, which is the another one that we're going to play today
on that album.
And then on hindsight, once we kind of decided to make an album, I was listening through
to the project as a whole and sort of realized that the whole theme of this album is like
this idealized romantic look on love that's based a lot off of like making someone bigger
than they seem or being really curious and romanticizing.
Then there's a lot of tracks that are like right before you know someone and kind of just
building them up and building them up.
And I have a history of doing that, not just in romantic relationships, but in situations
and in my music and I'm, you know, I am a daydreamer at heart.
So I don't know.
I wanted to do it like for hopeless romantics.
And Jake was like, I don't like four because maybe just call it hopeless romantics.
And I was, I was making the graphic and then that's when I had the idea to capitalize antics
because another theme in there is like just doing absolutely ridiculous stuff for love.
Yeah.
I think some of the lyrics are just kind of quirky like there's that line that's hard to
get is so hot, which therapists does not love that much.
Well, let me talk about your lyrics a little bit.
I mean, I have and your style of music like you have done a really great job of combining
like the best of Americana with modern pop sounds.
Like light me up is probably my favorite track of yours.
And then a close number two is I'm not your girl, but you have such a great,
lyrical style in terms of like your opening line for I'm not your girl as well as your
opening line for catch 22.
Like they stop you in your tracks like what the hell am I just going to be listening to?
Like you like within a span of four to nine words, you have absolutely opened up your heart
and let everybody know like holy crap, you're going on a ride.
That's not so that's not full writing like I that is something that I feel like I was trained
as a Nashville writer to do is is hook them with that opening line.
I was when I was like, you know, 15 16 bar has set me up to write with Will Rambo who had
some faith hill and some a grow cuts and I got to write with some like classic country heavy
hit or songwriters.
And there is that three chords in the truth that I feel like I was trained in early on
by those guys, which is that opening line needs to hook on.
And then you know the tell a story kind of kind of thing.
So that I was heavily influenced by that.
Yeah.
Well, I first saw you four years ago this month, actually four years ago last week when
you played the girls in Nashville show at city winery.
That was a world shut down.
Right literally right before.
Right three days.
Well, and if you recall correctly, there was a big tornado that night.
Oh, yeah.
That was.
Oh gosh.
I was terrified.
Yeah.
That hit.
It was off of Main Street where it went down at that time.
That was, yeah, as well.
But that night just absolutely blew me away.
Not seeing you Liz Longley was also on that bill.
Amazing.
Yeah.
And Caitlin Smith of course, and we had just moved here from Seattle.
And then we had been in town just a couple of weeks and we saw that show and was just
absolutely blown away by it.
And then of course six weeks later, you know, the power grid.
You know, Nashville.
Yeah.
It was wild.
Yeah, but yeah, I've the other thing I love about you're writing too is that you don't,
you know, Nashville has a way of saying, you know, everything's got to be under three
minutes or you know, you following that three minute rule for songs, but you know, for
you, you're like, nah, whatever.
I'm going to, I'm going to clock this one in at three and a half.
I'm going to clock this one in at four.
Like, you know, I go ahead.
Well, you know, as far as timing goes, I think, yeah, the two and a half three minute rule
applies if you're trying to really get played on radio.
But I've just been so focused on just being an independent artist and right now it's like
that you're trying to get sound by its viral anyways.
You're just trying to get like a 15 30 second part of the sound viral anyways and people
are going to go listen to the song and the length of the song doesn't affect the way that
your song will get play listed on editorial playlists.
So I wouldn't say it's been a concern because it's not like having a three minute song isn't,
I'm not pushing for like, terrestrial radio.
And for my friends who write specifically for country radio, you know, they're still kind
of following those guidelines.
But I just feel like I don't really have to.
Yeah, it's a double ed sword, you know, because if you go back and look at like some of
the greatest pop songs in the history of music, like a lot of those first Beatles songs,
two minutes, 15 seconds, two minutes, 30 seconds, right?
Yeah, I think breaking a sweat is two and a half minutes.
Yeah, you know, so, you know, I think that you just at the end of the day, you know,
you just have to be true to the song.
And if the song ends up, 215, 230, find whatever, but like don't, don't take something like
catch 22 or I'm not your girl and chop it up because it's got to be under three minutes,
right?
Yeah.
That's my thing.
I'm a bit of a purist that way, you know?
Yeah, I don't think it matters that much.
Also you can have a radio version for your song that you put for radio, you know, you
can just do a lot these days.
And I do think doing what's best for the song and being true to the song is the most important
because there's so many phenomenons and exceptions to the rule.
Currently on radio that has been on radio that goes viral every day.
Yeah.
So yeah, you just have to do it, do what you want.
I'm one of those purists though that like when I hear like the radio edit version of
like a song by the who where they've cut out like the instrument, I get pissed, I'm like,
fuck you guys, you know, change the channel, you know?
Yeah.
Well listen, we're going to, we're going to finish up here with the song either way.
So tell us about it.
Yeah.
So the song is really about my personal relationships with, you know, people in my family are friendships.
Sort of a broad song for me.
There's been a lot of generational trauma in my family and me and my closest friends have
gone through a lot of like, you know, they're experiencing trauma, they're healing through
something and love is just really difficult.
Unconditional love is really tough and it's very hard to navigate.
But this is a song about just my unconditional love for the people that I choose in my
life.
And I think it's one of those songs to where it's really moldable for a lot of situations.
I've had people say, oh, this song reminds me about my mom or oh, this song reminds me about
my boyfriend who's bipolar.
Whatever it is, it just is a song about unconditional love between people who are not perfect.
Fantastic.
Well, Bonner, I really appreciate you coming on the show, stick around.
We'll talk a little bit in the green room afterwards.
But I am a big fan ever since I saw you four years ago, I've followed your music and I really
hope you conquer the world.
I think you're one of the best out there and it's a, it's, it's, it's a lot of fun for me
just as a fan of your music to have you on the show.
So I really appreciate your time.
Well, thank you for saying that and hyping me up.
Words of affirmation is my love language.
So I really appreciate it.
Right.
And I'm happy to have come on.
This is very fun.
All right.
That's Bonner Black and taking us out and the song is called either way here on the fan
and power business hour, pocket business in the, in the, in the, in the out so the music
industry with a Nashville independent artist, Bonner Black.
Even when your eyes are cold, even when your words are cruel and digging too much, it
doesn't matter.
I won't let you run away, you say gold, but I will stay.
You ask why, hey, it doesn't matter.
You can be sweet as the smell of summer rain on fresh, card golden, bales of, hey,
you can be mad as a level five hurricane.
I would love you either way.
It's not your fault that daddy's gone and you're who mama blames it on.
You're learning to one learn the things it taught you.
Some say it ain't worth the fight, that sounds nice, but it don't feel right to turn my back
on who my heart belongs to.
You can be sweet as the smell of summer rain on fresh, card golden, bales of, hey, you
can be mad as a level five hurricane.
I would love you either way.
You can be gentle as a wind, pushing paint, rush clouds out west to turn red as the sun
goes down on harsh earth and the desert's worst drought.
I would love you either way.
You can throw your keys down on the kitchen floor and cry in my arms till they get short
and bring me my coffee in bed the next morning.
Yesterday was just a bad day.
I'll drive you to therapy and wait for you and the car will say you'd have a good heart
to heart cause for a bad or a worse.
For all that you are, I love you either way.
I love you either way.
My thanks to Nashville singer songwriter Bonner Black for that beautiful song and joining
us on the show today talking about her business model and how she gets it done.
Love how she incorporates birds into her merchandise and into her brand and of course that's
the way she finished up that song if you caught that beautiful outro there with those nice
nature elements at the end.
Thank you guys very much for listening.
If you found value in this podcast we would greatly appreciate a donation to our Albi
Wallet.
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checking us out today.
We will see you next Wednesday for another edition of the Phantom Power Music Hour.
Thanks so much.
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