(upbeat music)
Hey everybody, welcome back.
This is the Phantom Power Artist Hour for June 9th,
2024, episode 23.
And today I'm joined by Emily Rana.
Otherwise known as Emily Deranged.
You guys know her music well in the space.
She's got four singles up here and she's doing really well.
Emily is from Massachusetts,
went to Berkeley, been a Nashville for about five years.
She really knows the game.
Great writer, great performer, very unique voice.
This conversation is a lot of fun.
And I say that about all of them,
but it's probably the most personal one
that I've ever had with any of the guests on this show
because Emily and I both talk about our sobriety.
And we also talk about music and value for value
and songwriting and AI and all that other fun stuff.
But I hope you guys stick around
and enjoy this conversation.
Emily is a truly unique artist in a world of copycats
and in a world of zagodes, so to speak.
So it was a real pleasure to have her in studio here today.
And I hope you guys enjoy the conversation.
We're gonna kick it off with a song you guys know quite well
that's done really well in this space.
We're gonna kick it off with someone else
and then we'll bring on the guest.
Are you ready?
Here we go.
♪ Can't go anywhere without tripping on ♪
♪ The clothes you're like lying around and I swear ♪
♪ I'm tired every day, slipping away from my side ♪
♪ And you don't care ♪
♪ Tanks are the strangest in my house, in my house ♪
♪ But it's easier to tell myself it's someone else, someone else ♪
♪ So step inside of my brain ♪
♪ Where I make excuses ♪
♪ I'm the boy, I'm the chair ♪
♪ Where I feel anxious ♪
♪ Turns out I'm a stranger in my own house, in my own house ♪
♪ But it's easy to tell myself it's someone else, someone else ♪
♪ Your dish is in the sink ♪
♪ In the middle of the weeks and I can't bring myself to you one ♪
♪ The self to you one ♪
♪ Sitting on the kitchen floor, yeah ♪
♪ I don't go out anymore ♪
♪ I don't know how I can see ♪
♪ To do it ♪
♪ Tens of days is strange, I'm in my house, in my house ♪
♪ But it's easy to tell myself it's someone else, someone else ♪
♪ So step inside of my brain ♪
♪ Where I make excuses ♪
♪ I'm the boy, I'm the chair ♪
♪ Where I feel anxious ♪
♪ Turns out I'm a stranger in my own house, in my own house ♪
♪ But it's easy to tell myself it's someone else, someone else ♪
♪ Where's I could kick you out and change the locks ♪
♪ Oh, I was said I was living alone ♪
♪ But we know I'm not ♪
♪ Step inside of my brain ♪
♪ Where I make excuses ♪
♪ I'm the boy, I'm the chair ♪
♪ Where I feel anxious ♪
♪ Turns out I'm a stranger in my own house, in my own house ♪
♪ But it's easy to tell myself it's someone else, someone else ♪
♪ So step inside of my brain ♪
That is someone else here on the Phantom Power Artist Hour
and I'm thrilled to have in-house, in-studio,
and we're doing a little different today.
We're doing it on dynamic mics.
We're not going with condensers.
'Cause I wasn't happy with the last time I did in-house condensers.
But Emily deranged...
- Welcome. - Thanks.
- Happy to be here, Jim.
- I am, you and I have had a bunch of conversations,
but we've never really dove into the music,
the name change, the sobriety, all that.
So let's start with the name change.
First of all, I probably owe you an apology
because like every other old white guy,
I have screwed up your last name.
(laughing)
Is it, is it Ronna, Rona, what is it?
- Okay, so that's a complicated question.
- Actually, it's Ronna, that's how my family pronounces it.
- Okay.
- But it is a Sicilian last name.
And when I went... - Oh God, I'm so sorry I fucked that up.
- No, no, it's okay.
And it actually used to be Ronna.
It changed when my family emigrated.
I don't know if it was a fucking Ellis Island mistake
or if it was on purpose, whatever it was, it changed.
So it was Ronna, so just the O and the A got flipped.
- Okay.
- And we went to Sicily and we met some random people
and we're talking about last names and stuff.
And they pronounced it very Italian like, "The Rona."
- Ooh.
- Which sounds more like Rona.
- Right.
- But no one in my family says that.
Also if you follow American grammar,
the two ends make it a raw sound.
- Okay, yeah, Rona, okay, I got it.
- Yeah, so it's Ronna, but if you wanna be really fancy,
you could say the Rona, but you have to do,
you can't see what I'm doing,
but I'm doing the little...
- You're doing the thing.
- I'm doing the Italian thing.
- You're doing the Italian handbag.
- It's not even on purpose, like it just happens
when I say it like that.
- Well, I'm sorry for screwing up a Sicilian last name
because that's some heavy shit.
Like, you know, we're talking like Godfather stuff.
Well, I get it a lot too because people think I'm Italian.
- I thought that.
- No, we're Irish.
- I thought you're part of the club.
- Are you kidding me?
All the drunks in my family?
Are you kidding me?
Like myself included?
- Same.
- Yeah, it's, but I get it.
I've done a lot, but I know it,
but the whole Ellis Island name change thing,
it's funny you said that because like I was,
I was back down with my parents a couple of weeks ago
and I was looking at like pictures of the genealogy thing
that my mom got back and all of these headstones
and they're all misspelled because of Ellis Island.
Yeah.
- They weren't really keeping track.
- No, they were just like,
write your name, make your mark next, you know,
make your mark next.
So, all right, so Emily, Rhonda,
but we're now moving into the Emily Dorenged world.
- Yes.
- Okay.
And I absolutely adore this music.
You gave me a sneak peek at it months ago
and I've been sitting on it for months
and I'm thrilled that Hate Me is out
and we're gonna finish the show with that.
But let's talk about the name change.
What, why, what, where, and how?
Why, now, why are you doing it?
- So, I was Emily Rhonda for a couple of years.
I moved to Nashville just to be a songwriter
for other people and then lockdown happened
and I found myself writing all these
ronji fucking songs like Three Way,
which is on value for value.
- Yeah.
- That no one was gonna cut.
(laughing)
But I loved them.
So, I like kind of really have hazardly was like,
I'm gonna do an artist project and just did it under my own name
because of the Rhonda Ellis Island debacle,
there isn't another one.
Like it's a fairly unique name.
So I was like, this is a fine artist name, whatever.
- Yeah.
- But.
- So how did you come up with,
what, why, why deranged?
Like do you feel like it's, it's artistic?
Do you feel like it matches your personality?
Is there some event in the past that you were like,
this is, this is how I'm going?
Like what, what was the birth of it?
- Well, I had just finished mixing the new mini album
that is gonna come out soon
and that's what Hate Me is the first single for
and it's a lot darker than my previous stuff
and I was talking to a really great friend of mine.
His name is Nathan and we collaborate
on like business ideas and he's really smart in that way.
- Nathan Dose.
- Love him.
- Good old Nathan Dose.
- Good dude.
- Yeah, he's the best.
So he has a lot of business insight
that I don't always think about
and he thinks a lot about branding
and the Emily deranged idea.
Like a name change seemed to fit.
I wanted to fit the brand better, like my own brand
and also have some separation between myself
and my artistry in a way that still felt authentic,
which is a really hard line to walk.
- Yeah.
- But we were brainstorming together
and I've always thought about,
or not always thought about, but since I was a kid,
my dad would kind of show me Emily the strange stuff
because he was like, this is you,
like the little emo goth girl with the black cat.
(laughing)
And so I was thinking about that
and I was like, how fucking funny would it be
to do Emily the strange but the deranged version?
Like we're just taking it a step further.
So it's kind of like a little bit of a nod
to my dad and also if you haven't noticed the spelling,
I did de apostrophe range so it's still Italian.
- No, okay, all right.
So yeah.
- So were you the emo kid and the family,
like in the family pictures,
everybody's in the nice color coordinated outfits
and you're the kid in like the all black
and the sullen face and the black lipstick, really?
- Yes, not the lipstick.
I wasn't ever a huge makeup person.
- Okay.
- But the all black, yeah, even the church pictures.
I'm like in a black fucking corset.
And it's only a corset because my mom made me dress up.
It would have just been like black t-shirt.
Yeah, that was the compromise.
Like you can wear black but it has to be nice.
- Okay.
- All right.
And you're originally from Massachusetts, right?
- Yeah.
- Okay, so what, and you gave it a little bit of it
away, you moved here to become a songwriter for other people?
- Yeah, that was the idea.
- When did you, you've been here a while?
When did you move here?
- I moved in 2019, April.
So I just passed five years.
- Okay.
- Halfway through the 10 year town thing.
- Halfway, yeah.
Well, but you're, you're making a hell of a run at it
because I mean, you have a day job in the industry
and we can avoid that conversation if you'd like
but. - No, we can talk about it.
- But I mean, you work in the industry.
- I do.
- You're writing for other people.
- Yes.
- And you're releasing your own music at the same time.
- Yes.
- So you're a little bit of a rare bird
because whereas a lot of people are like working
at Frothy Monkey or Starbucks, you're not.
- No, I'm not.
I just love music so much.
I can't not do anything else for even a second
is what it comes down to.
Even if it's like not even all creative, I just,
need to be involved somehow.
- So you, but you started writing for other people.
So what made you go, "I screw it, I'm gonna put this one
out myself."
- People kept telling me to, well I was always in bands.
That was how it started.
- Oh!
- I was a teenager.
Yeah, I had a pop punk band in college.
We were called Tidicus Finch, name changed to Cardinals.
- Tidicus Finch.
- Yes.
- I love that.
- Okay.
- I know, I know.
We should have never changed the name but anyway.
So I was fronting that band
and that was what I really wanted to do for a really long time.
I wanted to front a band.
But being in bands as a collaborative thing
is really difficult.
I don't know if you've done it, but--
- Oh, you kidding me?
- Yeah, it's been married to four people.
Minimum.
So that didn't work out and I was so burnt out on it
by that point.
I was like, I just wanna write.
I just wanna make music.
I don't wanna be involved in any of this artist shit.
It's, I was depressed because of it.
Maybe not because of it.
I probably just have depression but it didn't.
(laughs)
It did not help.
Like my mental health was shit by the time this band broke up
and when I moved down here.
So I just didn't wanna be involved at all.
But I don't know, I'm a massacast.
I fucking missed it.
I missed performing and I missed things being about me.
- Yeah, well, okay.
So let me talk about Tidicus Finch.
Lead singer?
- Yes.
- Did you play guitar or keys or anything?
- Nope, I just jumped the fuck around in sane and wrote the songs.
- I have seen you live twice and I absolutely get it.
I absolutely understand why you would be the lead singer.
It makes complete sense.
(laughs)
Yeah, because I think you have, I mean,
you have the stage persona for it.
You have a really interesting voice as well.
That's, and I mean that in a good way because I think
so many pop writers or even female rock writers
and performers, they sound like everybody else.
But as soon as I hear your voice, I'm like,
"Oh, that's Emily."
Like you have a unique mid-frequency
that I'm sure beats the crap out of microphones in the studio
that stands out.
- I was really flattered recently
because I just recorded another short little EP
with Nick Wheeler from the All-American Rejects.
- Nice.
- Who's an angel human.
And I love him, but we were testing mics out
before we were picking which one we were gonna use.
And the one that ended up sounding best on my voice
was one he's only used one other time.
And I felt so flattered by that.
I was like, "Oh, my ego."
Like you never have to use this.
But my voice is so weird.
It requires this weird fucking microphone.
- That's great.
Like that, I mean, but to have that characteristic in this industry
when so many female artists sound the same.
And so many of them are doing this,
like, got this swollen mispronunciation sad girl thing.
But you have a nice razor's edge to your voice
and a nice brick coming at it.
- We can think Hayley Williams for that.
- Oh, got to get a lot of mimicking, yes.
(laughs)
- In my younger years.
- Yeah.
All right, so you left Tidacus Finch in Boston.
- Yes.
- Doing club gigs, regional touring, what was it?
- It was both club gigs, regional touring.
- Okay.
- At one point it ended up being just me and my guitar player
who was from New Jersey.
So I moved in with him and his parents in New Jersey.
- Well, that sounds fun.
- And it was a time, it was interesting.
It was very interesting.
23 and really broke.
I had a part time job as an under the table paid dog groomer.
And I scared a chihuahua so bad at shit on the table.
And eventually they just stopped calling me.
Like they didn't even formally fire me.
They just stopped asking me to come in.
- There's a song in there.
- There's a song in there that I haven't written yet.
So it was a time in my life to say.
- Hey, how do you get fired from an under the table dog grooming?
- I don't know, you were one of the really sad part.
Jim, my mom is a dog groomer.
I failed.
- You failed your poor,
- I failed my poor, like, name,
- And doorshane, yes, I did.
But I only got a job because I lied that I'd worked for her.
- Poor mama, Rhona.
- I know, Rhona.
- Sad.
- Damn it, I did it again.
I did it again, Rhona.
I gotta write that down.
All right, so moving in with the guitar player
in Jersey, a couple of years doing that,
and you come to Nashville 2019.
- Yep.
- Okay, so. - 24.
- Yeah, what was your first experience of moving?
I mean, 'cause Nashville is on the surface,
somebody like you and artists like you,
on the surface, you don't see the opportunities for Nashville.
What did you see here that other people did not?
- I luckily knew a lot of people here already.
- Okay.
- I went to Berkeley in Boston and Nashville is full of people
that I went to school with,
so it was kind of like a mini college reunion,
which was nice, but I didn't,
a lot of people who moved to Nashville
after going to music school come immediately,
and I kind of took a detour,
which ended up helping me out, I think,
because I got to visit and have all these old friends
kind of tell me what was up and like tell me where to go,
and like where the non-country stuff was happening,
so I had a lot of insight info when I came down here,
which was helpful.
- You had, what did you study at Berkeley?
- Songwriting.
- Okay, good.
Yeah, because there's a,
emerging and very strong pop in the rock community here.
- Oh, and hip hop, and R&B.
There's so much cool shit happening.
- Yeah.
- Not that country isn't cool, but,
when you're from New England, you don't get it.
- Yeah.
- It's not, it's not innately, I,
it's just not my thing.
- How many, when you came down here to be a songwriter,
were you open to writing in country,
or were you like,
"I'm just gonna stick in this lane?"
- I was open to it if I could do
kind of the lane that Casey Moskrives and Marin Morris
went down. - Yeah.
- The sort of, like, it's country, but it's also a kiss off.
- It's got a bite to it, yeah.
- It's got a bite to it.
I was open to doing that.
- Yeah.
- Which, I've done a little bit,
if anything, I've done more like, country, hip hop stuff.
- Oh.
- Which is another cool thing that is happening within the scene.
- I'd be interested in learning more about that.
I love the reference to Casey and Marin,
and I probably screwed up her name too.
Is it Marin?
- I think it's Marin.
- God, it always tells me every time I say it,
I got it wrong.
(laughs)
But I have said many times that it is only the female artist
in the country genre that are pushing the boundaries
of lyrics, Marin.
- Oh, I absolutely agree with that.
- Casey, cam.
If you've heard of cam.
- Yeah, Diane.
- Yeah.
- That's a great song.
But not until there's nothing left as well.
Because they're the only ones that are pushing the boundaries
of it.
They're kind of like, it's kind of like going back to the old
co-minor's daughter in PTA and, you know,
Loretta Lindvib, whereas the guys are just
regurgitating the old tropes.
- Right.
- Because they can.
They have that privilege of--
- Yeah.
- They're mediocre, and then they make a lot of money.
- Drives me nuts.
Drives me nuts.
Well, how many, so let's just dive into some weird specifics.
How many, you've been here five years?
How many songs would you say?
- I would say you've written in Nashville.
- I've written in at least 300, probably more than that.
More than that.
- Yeah, by yourself and co-writing with others and 300 easy?
Oh yeah.
- No, over 400.
Because I feel like, well, there was a point when I wasn't
also committing to doing the artist thing.
I was doing like 100 a year for like three years.
So it's definitely over 300 by this point.
- How has your opinion of songwriting changed
from studying at Berkeley to now?
- This is gonna sound really bad, but I almost wish I didn't do it.
- No, I get it.
- Yeah, yeah.
Music school is weird.
I'm very grateful for the opportunities that I had
and the people that I met.
I completely recognize how much of a privilege it was for me
to be in the position that I was in
and be able to go to the school that I went to.
But I, and I had amazing teachers too,
that taught me a lot and taught me things
that I still think about when I'm in a writer's room.
So it wasn't all for nothing.
But there was no co-writing that was really encouraged.
Like I think of teacher forced me to do it twice.
And all of modern music industry is collaboration,
whether it's pop, whether it's country,
like no matter what the genre is,
like people are creating more things together now successfully
than by themselves.
And also it's just more fun and more fulfilling.
So when I came down here, I hadn't co-written at all.
Like I'd always written by myself.
So that was a new skill I had to learn.
But I also feel like, you know,
Berkeley is in Boston, Massachusetts.
Like it's the only music industry thing in that city.
And I feel like I've benefited so much
from being immersed in, you know, kind of a little fish
big pond mentality and just being able to meet
all these different incredible people and collaborate.
And you get better being like, I feel like I've gotten
better actively doing it rather than learning about it.
- It's a tough call because like there is some value
to learning the theory and learning the mechanics,
the structural mechanics to songwriting and music theory
and production and things like that.
But then again, you learn that stuff to break the rules.
I had a teacher that said that he's like,
you're gonna learn all of this to forget it.
- Yeah.
- And that's, I didn't know what he meant at the time,
but that's entirely true.
- And I think there's a, there's also a danger
in learning that stuff too because you might, you know,
have an idea for a song and a core progression
and your Berkeley brain goes, oh, well,
you're not supposed to do that, you know?
- Yeah, I even, to this day, I will hear songs
that break a rule that I've learned and I'll be like,
I'm so bothered because I have this real stuck in my head
and then I think about it and I'm like,
well, that song's like number one right now.
- Yeah.
- It proved, it just proved, it doesn't matter.
- Yeah, yeah, it's like, you know, like I was,
I was reviewing a song today, I wrote a blog today
for an artist, incidentally, out of Massachusetts
and like her use of a major third chord,
just, it just like, it just tweaks your brain in this set
as key of C, you're not supposed to use a major third
in Nashville, right?
You're not supposed to use a major third in pop music
and she does it brilliantly and it just absolutely tweaks
your brain.
I mean, that's the type of stuff that you don't get in school.
- Yeah, yeah.
'Cause there's too many rules.
- And you have to learn them to forget them
and it's hard to step outside of that.
- Yes, it is.
- Well, so when you, for some of the songs
that we've had in the value verse
and shout out to homegrown hits for, for day viewing,
three way.
- Yes, shout out to them, they're amazing.
- So with three way and with someone else,
that was written in a certain mindset
and now you've got hate me and you've got the other tracks
coming up on this EP, how do you separate
in your brain between Emily of the past
and Emily deranged now?
- I feel like they're the same actually.
Like I know that like the name changing
does feel like a big pivot or it looks like a big pivot
but I feel like it's just kind of been
like a general progression of growth.
Like someone else was the first song
I put out under my own name
and I feel like it's just as part of the deranged version
of me as the Rhonda version,
it's just where the start was
and you can just see me
like further settling into like what my artist self
is supposed to be.
- I think it's more, knowing you as I do
and this is the first real in depth conversation we've had
but I think knowing you as I do,
I think it's more authentic.
- Yeah, I think so too, 'cause someone else,
I love that song but I didn't write it for me.
Like I wrote it about me.
Like it was about my experience
but I wrote it with this other
Nashville songwriter Anna Klein in 2019, like a couple months
after I moved here and we were writing for pitch.
Like I think we even referenced like Camila Cabello
or something. - Oh my God, I would have never picked up
Camila out of that one.
- Yeah, there was something in the versatility
where we were like this kind of like reminiscent of that
or like whatever and the pre and the post are the same
and the first time I had heard that like graveyard
by Halsey had just come out and she did the same thing
so we were like yeah that's cool.
You know this is a cool fucking thing we can do.
But I loved the song as it's bone so much
and it was still like I came into that session being like
I've been thinking a lot about my anxiety
and how it's an unwanted health like house guest.
So it was still my experience and really personal
even if it wasn't supposed to be for me at the end
it just got to be.
I had the, you know.
- Yeah.
- Is that, okay is the song?
Forgive me but is someone else primarily about
a mental health?
- Oh it's entire mental health.
- Yeah, it's not a person, it's okay.
- It's a personified thing.
- Okay.
- Yeah.
- All right.
- That's cool.
- Okay, no that's cool.
That puts a completely different spin on it.
Now you've got hate me out now and I've got two more
in my files here that you're,
that I know you're gonna drop into the space.
What can you tell us before we move on
to some other topics?
Like what can you tell us about the other songs
that are gonna be coming up from this new project?
- Well this project is also the most,
I don't know if compact is the right word
but it very much feels like it's one thing.
It's very specifically rooted in an experience
that I was going through when I wrote that,
I was getting sober when I wrote and recorded this record
and going through a horrible breakup
that kind of led me to my discovery that I needed to get sober
'cause I was just not handling it well
and really helped self destructively.
- Yeah.
- So the other two songs that are going to at least be singles,
they're just like different parts of the story.
- Okay.
- Yeah.
- Well, it's been a little while since I've heard them
but again, I think it's a more authentic version
of who you are knowing you as I do
but as compared to breathe someone else in three way.
But let's talk about sobriety.
I know it's a big topic, it's a hard topic.
I don't mind talking about it 'cause I've been sober
for 23 years now and I know you referenced it the other day
on Instagram and I thought about you when I saw that
because you had mentioned two years.
- Yep, two years on Thursday.
- Good for you.
- Thanks.
- And the first thing I thought of was,
I remember that time for me and about two years in,
I felt like okay, I was kind of over the hump.
It's like, I think I got it.
Because you go through two years of cycles
of the seasonal changes of bill paying
of friends coming and going, family members coming
and going.
- Holidays, holidays, celebrations.
- You're like, okay.
I think I got it.
Yeah, what, where, I mean, congrats.
- Thanks.
- And I understand why you did it.
- Me too.
(laughing)
- Yeah, what goes through your mind today
as you're thinking about it?
- I'm grateful for one.
I was, when you're in sobriety,
I'm sure as you know, like your sobriety anniversary
sort of become little birthdays.
- Yeah.
- And so mine was yesterday.
So there was like a lot of celebrating and reflecting
and- - I have a cup of tea.
- I have a cup of tea.
- A nice salad.
- What I had was a really big fucking cookie.
(laughing)
- There you go.
- That's what I had.
But it's been, you know, me thinking a lot about how
I feel like every, I think a lot of stuff is connected.
I think a lot of things in the body are connected.
Because alcoholism wasn't the only thing
that I was struggling with.
It was also depression and it was also OCD.
But I spent a lot of time ignoring how alcohol
factored in to all the other stuff
and was just trying to fix like pieces
of what my problem was.
- Yeah.
- And what it turned out to be was that everything was connected.
And like I can't treat one part of myself
without addressing the whole.
And I was speaking about this last night
and it just like made me more aware of it
when I said it out loud that I am not willing to.
Like I know that if I were to drink again,
it is not just the alcoholic part of me
that would flip out like everything else will follow.
And yeah, and I just, I don't, I don't.
- I know what I'm gonna do.
- I'm gonna do what I have to do to make sure
that doesn't happen.
- Yeah, I know that if I do it again,
I'm gonna lose everything I have.
- Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So.
- It's a, it's such a weird, you know,
you go through these ups and downs where it's like,
all right, I got it, but you're still like,
God, how do I describe this to other people?
And how do I get, because like you feel
that it's the right thing to do,
but you can't even necessarily, you know,
describe it to yourself.
- It also was a weird thing to kind of explain to my parents.
- When I told them about it.
Because my mom especially had a very specific idea
of what having a drinking problem looked like.
She was like, you're not homeless
and you're not like under a bridge.
- Doesn't matter.
- There were things like that.
And yeah, I actually ended up bringing her to a meeting
because she visited me.
- Oh, cool.
- Okay.
- Yeah, and someone was sharing their story
and it didn't look like anything she thought it
would have looked like and she was crying by the end of it.
She was like, I understand now.
- I get it now.
I'm like how, this like everything is a spectrum
and it's not gonna look the same.
The only common denominator is like you can't do it.
- Did you have to cut ties with any friends,
any people, any contacts?
- No, but I have noticed that I've had to distance myself
from some people and things.
It's more of like,
almost new people that come into my life
or people that have been in my life
because recovery isn't linear
and sometimes people slip.
And there's also been,
I think there's been more of checking in
with like how close do I wanna be to this person right now?
Like where's the line between like me being helpful
and me, it'd be detrimental to like my own sanity.
So I haven't like fully cut ties with anybody
but I have been practicing more of like maybe
there should be more space.
- Yeah, mine came on the heels of an event in Santa Barbara
with the police department.
- Oh!
- It's actually a really funny story
and I was talking to my friend about it
last night the guy who also ended up in the jail cell with me.
But I realized I had to quit
and then I spent probably another year or two
with the band as the sober guy.
- Oh.
- And we were touring a lot.
- Oh shit.
- And I was a lead singer, I was guitar player.
I was booking the shows, booking the tours.
And it just caused a huge rift.
I was the sober one and the other guys were not.
And I had to cut ties with them at that point.
And it took probably six or seven years for that
for those relationships to be repaired
because I walked away from the band,
I ended it, I shut the whole thing down.
And then they went on to do some other great things
and tour and have some great successes.
And I'm thankful they're both alive.
I'm thankful they're doing well
and I'm thankful that they're still two
of my dearest friends ever but it took a long time
to repair that.
- Yeah.
- 'Cause it's hard when you do it, when you shut it down.
Especially if everybody in your circle
is getting fucked up every now.
- Yeah, it's weird.
I, even with my best friend in the whole world,
I felt like there was some weirdness between us for a while
just because it kind of changes you when you stop.
Like you're not the same person anymore.
- No.
- You thought process changes?
- Yeah, yeah, you don't, it,
it's just kind of wild.
- Yeah, it's funny.
I had a, I was talking to my buddy last night about it.
He's the bass player and he was our producer.
And I told him, we were talking about sobriety
'cause he was like, hey Adam,
I don't mean to make a lie to it or make a joke of it
but he's like, and I hadn't spoken to him in about six months.
He's asked him how he was doing.
He said, good, he said,
you know, I went on a four month sobriety binge
and he's like,
- That's a funny way to put it.
- Yeah, and I, you know,
but I didn't take offense to it
and I understand what he's saying
and where he's coming from and he's like,
man, it's wild.
It's like every time I do it,
like I drop 25 pounds,
like I get clearheaded, you know, all this stuff.
- Yeah.
- And I'm like, good.
And he's like, I know that's nothing compared
to what you've done and what you've gone through
but it is always, he said it,
every time I come at the end of it
and I decide to have a beer again.
He's like, I'm always,
I'm always kinda like,
why do I even do this anymore?
You know?
And I think, you know,
age has a lot to do with that too.
And I don't know about you,
I've lost dear friends and I've lost a sibling to alcoholism.
But I had this, I say all of that,
knowing full well that as I said earlier,
if I start again, it's over.
- Yeah.
- Right?
But I do have a good joke about all of it.
And my wife knows this, my daughter knows this
and I told my friend this yesterday.
- Oh, I love a good joke.
So I said, look, if the doctor tells me,
Mr. Costello, it's really bad news.
Like you got four months, there's nothing we can do.
It's game over.
If I get that news, I'm not falling off the wagon.
I am jumping headfirst.
I'm gonna do like, all right, it's on.
Why not?
Like, you know, that's, I'm kind of joking
but I'm also kind of serious because that's the,
that is the, that is the really hard part of the sobriety
because you, because you miss it so much,
you miss what it feels like.
But you also know that if you do it, it's game over.
- Jim, it is so funny you say that
because I make a very similar joke.
I'm also a vegetarian on top of being sober.
I've always been a vegetarian.
- Good Lord woman, why would you put yourself through all that?
- I was, I was raised vegetarian.
So I've never, I've never knowingly had meat.
So I don't even know what I'm missing out on.
- All right, good.
All right, fair enough, fair enough.
- With that being said, I make 99% serious jokes
about my last meal being a giant steak with heroin on top.
- With a brandy?
- With heroin.
- Ooh.
- Just sprinkled on it.
- Sure.
- Yeah, like, why the fuck not?
If I'm gonna die, I'm gonna go out
not the way that I lived.
- If the state of Tennessee convicts you
and you're going into the gas chamber,
that's your last meal.
- Steak with heroin.
- Right.
- And a brand, I mean, you might as well.
- And a brandy.
- I know, I just, all of it.
Yeah, I don't know.
- The heroin laced on top of the steak for whatever reason.
- It just seems like really, it's nice choice.
- I was puke everywhere.
I would like not be well, but I'm gonna be dead.
So it doesn't really matter.
- And you should throw in a pack of unfiltered camels.
I mean, really, just go out on top.
Boy, this is, this is not brandy though.
I missed, it's tequila, tequila is really.
- Oh really?
- Yes.
- Mine is, mine's Jack.
- Hmm.
- Yeah, like that line from "Sent of a Woman"
when Al Pacino says, "I can't remember the name
"of the other actor he was with,
"but Al Pacino orders a John Daniels."
And the kid who is assisting him says,
"Isn't it Jack Daniels?"
And he goes, "Son, when you know him as well as I do,
"you call him John."
(laughing)
That always took me.
- Wow, oh, that's awesome.
- Well, this might be the darkest fan of power artists.
Our, we've ever had.
- Hey.
- Red meat and cigars, death sentences, drug addictions?
Fantastic.
- You gotta joke about it.
- You do.
- You gotta laugh, Jim.
- Yeah, I know.
- No, this is, this is good.
So, let's strip the gears out of this whole thing
and let's talk about something else.
- Okay, okay.
- How, now you've been doing this Bitcoin thing
with us for a couple of months now.
- Yes, since February.
- Yeah, what you take on this whole thing?
- I mean, and maybe throw in a little bit about how it,
your impression of it since you literally have a day job
in the industry.
What, what's your take on your experience so far
and where you see it going?
- I feel like I've just been flabbergasted the whole time
and I always, I always, whatever I tell people
what I'm doing now, I'm like, oh yeah,
I'm like involved with this Bitcoin stuff.
People look at me like I've turned into one of those jocks.
- They're like, what is it?
- What is it?
- I thought you said you were not doing drugs.
- Yeah, boys in the basement with,
you know, they have like a fucking Bitcoin computer
or whatever.
And they always look at me weird and I'm like,
no, no, no, no, hear me out.
It's not what it sounds like.
- We're not running drugs.
- And it's been interesting to watch.
I feel like my experience with it is still really early,
but being on both sides of the industry
because I'm still running my music just as hard
through Spotify and Apple Music,
but it's from a monetary standpoint.
It is really cool to actually feel like
there's being compensation that is happening in real time.
- Yeah.
- Especially before we, I don't even remember if we were live,
but you just told me about someone who had a number one song
and then only got a thousand dollars for it.
- Oh yeah, that dude.
You're gonna meet him in July.
- Yeah, yeah, and that's tragic and also completely unfair.
And I also, you know, being on the industry side,
I feel like there's just, I'm seeing a lot of bullshit happening
with people being taken care of financially.
So I feel like this is an opportunity where,
and I hate to only talk about the money side of it,
but also it's hard not to because music is a business.
- I think it's important to talk about the money of it.
Everybody ever likes to talk about money,
but I think it's important for you in Joe Martin,
Arrayus, Just Loud, anybody who's in this space.
I think it's really critical for you guys to talk about
the income that you're making,
even if it's only like 10 bucks off a song.
- Yeah, I think so too.
Like I remember growing up and being told,
like you never ask about anybody's salary,
and I'm just like, why the fuck not?
The only reason we're not supposed to be talking about that stuff
is because the people high up don't want us to figure out
how unfair it all is.
- I think that I was raised the same way,
and I believe that that is correct in many social settings.
You don't talk about how much people are earning
on their regular day jobs.
In the context of artists getting compensated,
I think it's critical for you and everybody else
to be talking about how much you're making.
- Yeah, 'cause it's sad how much it is.
- Yeah, yeah.
And you have an insight seat to it
because you work for one of the performing rights organizations
here in town.
And another guy that I brought into the space,
Tony, who's with the blue house band, who you should check out.
- Oh yeah, yeah.
- Yeah, Tony, we put one of this songs up a couple days later
and I ran into him and he's like, dude, this is amazing.
He's like, I made like five bucks in the like a day.
I'm like, yeah, that's just the start.
Like, and you might think that, oh, five bucks is not a big deal.
- It is when you make five bucks in a month.
- Or like, with the other streams, so this is, yeah.
- 100,000 streams and you get five dollars.
So it's really critical that you guys not be ashamed to talk about.
- Yeah.
- The money.
- I agree.
- Because you guys, I think it's critical for you guys
for lack of a better term and forgive me for being vocal,
but to fucking shame Spotify for what they're doing.
- Yeah.
- You know?
- I agree.
And it's, but sadly, it's like not just Spotify.
It's just the way the industry is set up as a whole.
- Yes, absolutely.
- Yeah.
- Absolutely.
- I feel like, even though they seem like this really big thing,
I feel like they're just another cog in the whole thing
where they're doing what's gonna keep them afloat
because it's keeping labels afloat.
And it's just, it's just snake.
That doesn't stop.
- Yeah.
- Well, since you work for one of the PROs
and you see that there is now a direct exchange,
like if Chad F or Boris and over in Europe,
or Oystein and Europe, or even if Abby,
and down in Australia, likes your music
and sends you money directly,
you have an inside scoop as to how this whole,
how this all works.
Where do you see, or do you see,
performing rights organizations,
getting in the middle of this,
or getting involved in this,
or is there nothing they can do about it?
- I don't know how they would get involved in it.
Like I also kind of telling themselves
it's probably nothing to worry about
until it's too late.
- Interesting.
- 'Cause I, it's never,
I've been working for a PRO since I've lived here.
I've been working for them for five years.
- Oh wow.
- And no one has ever uttered the word Bitcoin before.
No one has mentioned it.
- No shit.
- Nothing.
- What about, what about Ethereum or NFTs?
- No.
- No, really.
- Nope, AI, we've been talking about AI,
but not Bitcoin.
So it's just, and I mean,
I'm not in a very high level department,
so I don't really know what's going on
in other areas of the company,
but it just doesn't seem like something
that's a concern and like that might be a mistake.
But also at the same time, do we even want,
PROs involved?
'Cause it kind of feels like this value for value
is also a really great place for people
to consciously make decisions about where they want to put
their money, where they want to put their time.
And it's free from any other thing.
- Yeah, I get that question a lot from people
when I'm onboarding them or when I'm talking to them about it,
and they ask, well, what is,
what is BMI or ASCAP or CSAC going to do about it?
And I'm glad to hear you say the same thing.
I don't know where they could insert themselves into this.
It's the same thing, it's like if you were busking
at Pikes Market and Seattle,
and you're standing there on the corner with your guitar,
and you're blasting through your songs
and people are throwing in money,
or they're not because they don't like it,
and that's their choice.
- Exactly, there's a lot of choice.
I mean, I guess there's choice involved in all streaming,
like if you don't like the song, you don't play it.
- Yeah, if you don't like the song on Spotify or Title,
or whatever, you just skip through it, right?
But if you like it, you have that opportunity
to compensate the artist directly,
and I don't know, like if you're standing there
in Pikes Market playing, busking with your guitar case open,
and there's a representative from BMI, they're going,
"Oh, well, there's a dollar,
"let me take my 12 cents out of that dollar."
There's no way in hell.
It's the same thing here.
I don't know how they would ever insert themselves into it.
- I, well, BMI and ASCAP actually,
there as far as I know, are fully nonprofit
and do not take anything out of,
like if anyone's taking a cut, it's publishers and labels.
ASCAP and BMI do not profit off of anything.
CSAC does though,
which kind of makes CSAC more coveted,
because the idea is if they are taking a piece,
they might work harder for you, which is also,
it's a whole strange idea,
and BMI is also trying to adopt some sort of thing
that's similar to that.
I'm not entirely sure, but it's, I don't know.
I don't know what else to say about that.
- Yeah, well, and I respect that.
I know we can't get too far into that,
but explain just for those of us,
for those of listening who don't know what a PRO is,
a performing rights organization,
can you explain to them what ASCAP BMI and CSAC do?
- Yes.
So ASCAP, CSAC and BMI are basically licensing companies.
So every time a song is performed,
songwriters and publishers are expected to get compensated
for those performances,
but the performances aren't only live,
their performances with audio recordings,
like if it's in a public establishment,
like a restaurant or a store,
if you are playing music in that establishment,
that is money, there is money there
that needs to go to the songwriters and the publishers.
So these establishments by law have to have license.
- They have to have a license.
From CSAC BMI and ASCAP because most countries only have one,
we have three for some reason and most songwriters,
most songs end up having all three on them
because it's not like ASCAP writers only write
with ASCAP people or stuff like that.
So it's a little bit messy in that way.
So you kind of have to, which kind of sucks,
you have to have all three licenses
when you have a business or a venue.
And then this isn't my department
and then somehow the music that is played is kept track.
Like there is technology that these PROs use
where we can tell what songs are being played
and where and how much money that warrants
and the money that is paid through people buying licenses
that money gets distributed to the writers and the publishers.
- Okay.
- And 100% of that does go to the writers and publishers
at ASCAP and BMI but not CSAC.
CSAC does take a cut.
- Okay.
All right.
So you alluded to the fact that AI is the hot topic around this.
- AI, yes.
- Dive into that.
What are you hearing?
What do you see?
- Well, it was hot for a second and then it died,
at least here because Tennessee just passed a law that--
- The Elvis Act.
The Elvis Act that all AI is basically public domain.
Like if you create some of the AI,
you cannot profit off of it, which saves a lot of people's asses.
- Yep.
- But as far as I know that is also only a thing in Tennessee.
So like the Nashville office isn't concerned about it anymore
but I don't know about elsewhere.
- I'm surprised California and New York
haven't done something similar.
- They should.
Everyone should.
I'm honestly surprised Tennessee did as quickly as they did
because it was a really nice thing to do for people
and like our state isn't really known for that.
- Hmm.
(laughs)
They have a different set of values here.
- Yes, they do.
They do, which I did not think would ever align with mine
but this time it worked out.
- Yeah.
Well, I think it just goes to show how powerful
the entertainment industry in Nashville is.
- I think it also shows how people,
like even though monetarily it isn't always shown,
people do value authentic creativity
and people do not want to see that get replaced.
- Does the rise of AI, does it concern you as a songwriter?
- I don't think about it too much and I think,
I don't think it does and maybe it's naive of me
but I do fully believe that even the creatives
that are raking in the millions of dollars
and it would be so easy for them to just be like,
have AI do it, I'm not gonna work anymore.
I think music is too magical
and I think collaborating is too magical
that people are gonna wanna stop that just to make life easier
because the thing is being creative is hard
and like it's a hard industry
and we already are choosing to do it anyway.
Like we could go do something else
that makes us maybe even more money.
- Oh, the songwriter does.
- Most certainly could.
- And is not as emotionally or mentally taxing.
So there is a clear choice for creatives
who genuinely want to be creative
and no matter what labels say or what publishers say,
I think the music industry power is ultimately
where the creatives are because if people aren't creating shit,
it's not gonna happen and I do think,
I mean AI is really, really smart but I feel like you can't,
I don't think artists are gonna want to cut those songs.
I just don't see it happening.
- Well let me play devil's advocate.
Like if you could cut a song and by using AI,
you save a thousand dollars on having to pay
studio musicians would that make a difference?
And that's it, I wanna throw up in my mouth
for saying it to be honest with you.
- Well how is that different than a producer
just using MIDI tracks?
- I don't know.
'Cause that's the same, I mean, maybe it's less time.
Maybe it's less production time.
- Yeah, I think part of the issue with my argument
is I don't fully understand how AI works.
- Well I don't.
- Yeah. - Or like what it's supposed to be filling in.
I feel like trying to avoid it as a tool would be silly
because it's just, it's here now.
- Yeah.
- I don't, I personally don't know how to use it
but if I go into a session and someone's like,
we should try this, I'll probably be like,
let's see what happens.
- Yeah.
- You know, but at the same time you can't do that
because anything you make with AI and Tennessee is,
you can't.
- You're not gonna be able to.
- Yeah, so it might, that doesn't work.
- Emily deranged voice or anything like that.
- Yeah, you can't profit off it anyway.
So that, no, I don't even know what the point of it is.
- Well, I'm thinking out loud.
But I find it fascinating as to where it's going to go.
I think you're point about, hey, how is that any different
than using MIDI or using samples already?
Yeah, maybe not, right?
- 'Cause for that, then that realm
it might not be different,
might not make any difference at all.
It might just make,
making, building a track faster.
- Yeah.
I actually, on one of the review shows that I did,
I reviewed a song that was completely in it
that was done in the AI.
- What was that like?
- It was hook, it was hooky hook,
hooky hooky, poppy pop, right?
But it wasn't, it wasn't like,
like Taylor, ah, not Taylor.
It wasn't like, who is it?
Sabrina Carpenter or Deweleepa,
like it wasn't that perfect.
'Cause I love pop, I love a great pop song.
- Oh, so do I.
I was listening to something in the car on my way here.
- Yeah, like, like Spice Girls is one of my dirty pleasures, right?
So, and I listened to it and I'm like,
okay, musically, it was okay,
it was very stereotypical,
and the lyrics were not deep at all,
and pop music really isn't,
but it was, the lyrics were kind of nonsensical,
in a way, but it caught me off guard,
because like, when I listened to it the first time,
I was like, what is that?
Why am I so interested in this?
What, so it obviously was written well enough,
and produced well enough to catch my ear,
and make me listen to it,
because I'm a bit of a jerk in terms of like,
when I hear a new song, if I don't like it,
if I can guess where it's going to go,
in terms of melody, beat, chord structure, any of that,
if I can guess any of that,
I'm gonna change the channel and dump it,
and I was like, why am I,
and I got through the whole thing,
and then I learned that the whole thing was AI,
and I was like, oh God, I got suckered in.
You know? - That's, so the vocals were AI too.
- Oh yeah, everything.
- Interesting.
- It's like, I've been used, I feel so violent.
- Did it sound like something was missing?
- Quality lyrics.
- But that was it, like nothing else felt off.
Okay, that's horrifying, that's really scary.
- And the song structure, it followed the pattern,
but it was like, some of the changes were a little,
not the changes, but the transitions between the sections
were a little odd.
And I mean that in the sense of you and I have both studied theory,
we know the things you shouldn't do.
We also have written enough that we know where to break through
rules and how to get away with that.
This was a little something else.
It was kind of like, it kind of like a dislocated shoulder
or something like that.
You're like, that's kind of weird.
Like, you need to pop it back in, it still works,
but it's like, so I kind of felt like taking advantage of,
I guess is what you would say.
- Well yeah, you feel kind of duped.
- Yeah. - No, none of that was real.
- Yeah.
And I love the, and I love the artistry of this whole thing.
I love the challenge of writing a good song
and I love finding artists that I believe in.
And yeah, I just felt like, I got to, I don't know.
And that's a terrible phrase.
And I don't mean to use it out of context,
but I felt taking advantage of it kind of like duped, you know?
- I think I just feel really hopeful
that a lot of people feel the same way about actually making stuff.
Yeah. - That won't be so easily replaced.
But it also is horrifying to know that it's like almost
undetectable, 'cause I haven't listened to it myself.
I don't know how good it is, but I hear that it's good.
- Well, you can, I mean, undetectables the thing, right?
Because we're now seeing, you know, photos and videos
that are like, whoa, wait a second.
Yeah, there was just that whole thing with like fake Taylor Swift
Nudes and just like.
- Or fake Trump and handcuffs and getting in fights
out in front of Trump Tower.
You're like, what?
You know? - Oh my God.
- It's that part of it is scary.
- And then invasive and, yeah.
- All right.
Last section of the interview and happy release day
to you, by the way.
- Thanks.
- Yeah.
Musical guilty pleasures, go.
- Wait, I'm rolling through everybody that I listened to.
I don't know if I...
I hate calling something a guilty pleasure
because I feel like that means deep down,
I actually think it's bad.
- No, no, no, no.
All right, so let me, all right, so let me rephrase it.
Give me a couple of albums, a couple of bands
that you absolutely adore that are completely outside
of the genre that everybody knows Emily Deranged
or Emily Rhonda in.
- Okay, I love Gunpowder and Led by Miranda Lambert.
- Okay.
- That song is a banner and a half.
- Okay, good.
- It's so country.
I feel like that would kind of be surprising to people
or when I listen to...
- I think sidebar, I think you have a similar vocal tone
to Miranda, continue.
- Oh, that's interesting.
Um, I don't know, I really like espresso right now
by Sabrina Carpenter.
I feel like anytime I'd like listen to something
like really, really pop, I don't feel like it's surprising
because I'm a writer.
And like pop is, you know, kind of...
The, I don't know how I'm trying to say this,
but it's like, when you decide to be a writer,
usually pop is at the forefront of all of that.
- Yeah.
- Pop has...
It's a very valid format.
- Yes, and it's usually...
I feel like between pop and country historically,
it's fueled by the writers and the producers
and not as much the artists.
- Right, okay, give me one more,
you gave Miranda Lambert a espresso,
give me one more completely outside of the genre.
- Completely outside.
- Oh my God.
Again, I don't think this is shocking,
but that's just 'cause I mean, I know myself,
but like I also really love hip-hop.
I love Kendrick Lamar, I love Mac Miller,
I think I listen to them both every day.
- Oh, all right.
- Yeah, like every single day.
(laughs)
They're playing.
- Okay, next question.
If you had to choose between Frank Sinatra and Nat King Cole.
- So this is what I should have said,
'cause this is even more shocking.
I am very into modern day mastering,
and I love modern day mastering so much
that I have a hard time listening to things
that have come out since before 1985,
because I can't stand how they're mastered.
So I don't even know, I can't give you a single song
of Frank Sinatra or Nat King Cole.
So I'm gonna pick. - Okay, you sidestepped that one,
'cause there's really only one correct answer
and the correct answer is Nat King Cole.
- I'll believe you.
(laughs)
- All right, give us a funny or horrifying gig experience.
- Well, there was one time when I was in my pop punk band
and it was me and a bunch of dudes.
I was the only girl.
We went in to load in and the door person
was also female and she assumed that I was a groupie.
I don't remember what she said to me,
but she was checking all of our IDs,
like checking the band's IDs to make sure
that we were like whatever,
like to sign you in, I guess,
and she didn't think I belonged there.
So that was infuriating because if a man,
I would have been just as upset if a man did it,
but it sucks more when it's another woman.
And you're like, you should know how this feels.
- Yeah.
- To just have someone assume that this isn't your role.
Like you could have even thought I was a fucking tambourine player,
but you just thought I was like, was a girlfriend.
- You're Janine from Spinal Tap?
- Yeah, yeah.
(laughs)
- Puppet show Spinal Tap first and Puppet Show last.
(laughs)
- Yeah, and then there was the show you were at actually
where I broke my backing tracks halfway through the set.
I fucked them up because I started doing this thing,
'cause usually I play with a drummer and I had backing tracks.
And I started doing this thing
that I called the Taylor Swift moment
where I will play once on acoustic,
like I'll pause the whole set,
play my song, resume it.
And when I did that, I went back and I pressed the wrong fucking button
and I just ruined the whole thing and I couldn't figure it out.
So then I just did the rest of the show acoustic
because thankfully I write my songs
and I know how to properly them.
- But it worked.
It worked.
- Thank you for saying, I still had fun,
and I wasn't actually embarrassed,
but it was really funny to me, to be like,
wow, I actually just did that.
- That's okay, everybody goes through that.
And the crowd was supportive and yes,
thankfully you are talented enough as a writer
to be able to pull it off, right?
- It would have been worse if I...
- Yeah.
- It could have been worse.
- The joys of Ableton.
- Yeah.
- All right, last question, favorite national moment so far.
- Oh man.
I mean, this was a lot of moments, but I think it was...
Actually, no, I was just thinking about this today.
So Nick Wheeler, who I had already mentioned,
he doesn't know this 'cause I haven't told him yet.
So if he listens to this, he'll find out.
But I had the biggest crush on him when I was 12.
(laughs)
He, I was the biggest fucking All American Rejects fan,
and it was him that I loved.
I loved him.
Yeah, yeah, I wasn't, I mean, lead singer, fine, cool, whatever,
but he was the one that I was obsessed with.
So we've been working together since I've lived here,
which is like that in itself is a crazy,
full circle thing.
- Oh my God.
- Yeah, it's wild.
And I've like really kept my cool gym about it.
But over the summer, they went on a reunion tour
and I got to go and I brought my best friend with me
who was also a big fan we were kids
and it was awesome and really heartwarming and warm and fuzzy
and I was thinking about today.
That was so cool that I, you know.
- That is an awesome, nice film moment.
- It was an awesome, Nashville moment.
I went, they had an after party after in a parking lot
with Daddy's dogs.
- Oh, stop it.
Was that here at Municipal?
- Yes, yeah, it was.
- We saw that show.
That was a great show.
- Oh shit, I didn't know it.
I was like the month before I met you guys.
- Yeah, probably.
- Yeah, yeah.
So you were there too, that's sick.
So I also, I went to the after party.
I was too afraid to talk to any of the other members.
But I, you know, caught up with him.
I ate a bed dog and.
- Daddy's dogs is great.
- It was great.
It was just, it was just, it was just,
shout out to Salty Crown down in Texas
'cause he knows about Daddy's dogs.
He was up and watching to the state.
Yeah, excuse me.
- I want one right now.
- Salty Crown is the guy who hosts up beats.
- Oh, okay, cool.
- Sorry.
- Hell yeah.
- Well, that's a cool Nashville moment.
That's like, come a long way after five years moment.
- Yeah, it was, it was pretty cool.
- So what was that for like, when you,
how did you team up with him?
How did you get, was it through Nathan?
- I slid in his DMs.
No, I met Nathan years later.
- Oh really?
- Yeah, yeah.
- You met Nick before Nathan?
- Yep.
I met Nick in the winter of 2021.
I was actually at a dropkick Murphy's show.
- She, what a shock Boston kid.
- I know, I know, it was so fucking fun.
- Sit there with your Bruins hat on.
- Oh yeah, I am wearing a Bruins hat right out.
I didn't have this hat then, unfortunately.
I was also drinking then, so had a lot of beers.
It was very, very fun.
- Right.
- But I am a big fan of Cassidy Pope who,
- Oh yeah.
- Yeah, I have not met her yet,
but I've been following her since she was in Heymonday.
And I knew that she lived here
and she had just come out with a new song
and she had tagged Nick it and she was like,
wrote this song with Nick or like Nick produced it.
And I was like, oh yeah, I remember being fucking obsessed
with that guy and I clicked on his profile
and realized he lived here.
And I was like, I have nothing to lose.
I'm just gonna reach out to him.
- Shoot your shot.
- And just, I sent him a DM and I was just like,
I was the biggest fan of you.
I'm also doing music here.
I'm like, you know, whatever.
Can I buy you a coffee and just like pick your brain
and talk to you?
- Good for you.
- I didn't mention anything about my music or whatever.
I was just like, I just wanna buy you coffee.
And he said yes.
And actually he ended up paying for his own coffee.
- Nice.
- But it was, yeah, he got back to me
and we went to some coffee place.
I think it was retrograde in East
and he was the nicest fucking person.
And then we started writing
and then I wanted to record what we wrote
and then we recorded it and that's how it happened.
- That's an awesome story.
- Yeah.
- That really highlights how welcoming
and warm Nashville can be.
- And also Nick specifically.
- Yeah.
- Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- You know, me for, for bait 'em.
- Because I don't think you'd get the same response
from like a top 10 country guy.
- No, and also I don't think you would get
that response in LA either.
I've never, like I've been to LA
but I've never worked in LA.
And just the comparisons I hear like,
I mean, Nashville has a lot of its own bullshit
but something that I do hear people talk about a lot
is how open people are to actually meeting each other.
Like working together.
It's not as standoffish as I hear LA is
and if someone's listening to this works in LA
it needs to correct me, that's totally fine.
But I find like they won't.
- I know. - It's true.
- You know, I had a totally different experience in LA.
I mean, I was there from 95 to 03 and like you,
I moved to LA because I had contacts there.
You have contacts here.
- Yep.
- I built up a network based upon those contacts
and I was very fortunate that those guys
were hovering around the biggest studios.
- Yeah.
- So my experience was different in that regard.
I do remember it being pretty plastic, pretty fake.
Whereas I, my experience is in the pop and rock world
here it's much more organic.
I think the writers, the country scene here is not as authentic
as the pop and rock scene is.
I think the pop and rockers here are more open and welcoming
because they feel that they have a lot to prove.
They have to prove their legitimacy
more so than the country guys do.
The country artists do.
- I agree with that.
- Yeah.
But anyways, that's just my take on it.
- Well, Emily, thank you.
- Jim, thank you.
- Yeah.
- And we will close out the 23rd edition
of the artist hour with hate me.
Good, love this track.
- Thank you, so do I.
- And see you around town.
- Sounds good.
See ya.
(upbeat music)
♪ Everyone call this situation ♪
♪ And my soul after mystic ♪
♪ I let you run ♪
♪ Throw me like a house you'd rather keep thinking ♪
♪ I'm blaming myself ♪
♪ If I could look better ♪
♪ With that help ♪
♪ I always wake up just to reach out ♪
♪ Go ahead say it's romantic ♪
♪ Can't I tell? ♪
♪ Do I have an end of the week ♪
♪ Since you called me ♪
♪ I'm drunk enough ♪
♪ I flew the boat over so I can't see ♪
♪ I'm fucked up ♪
♪ Or am I just another one ♪
♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪
♪ Wait till you call me every time ♪
♪ I call this fate ♪
♪ You call me into me ♪
♪ When you're unturned ♪
♪ Please fit up, up, up ♪
♪ Or am I just another one ♪
♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪
(upbeat music)
♪ Just to me, it'd be easy to see ♪
♪ It feels like I shouldn't know better ♪
♪ So you agree ♪
♪ You're being more than just a tease ♪
♪ When you go start over ♪
♪ Like the last time the hotel ♪
♪ You told me you were sorry ♪
♪ Go to hell ♪
♪ Do I have an end of the week ♪
♪ Since you called me ♪
♪ I'm drunk enough ♪
♪ I flew the boat over so I can't see ♪
♪ I'm fucked up ♪
♪ Or am I just another one ♪
♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪
♪ Wait till you call me every time ♪
♪ I call this fate ♪
♪ You call me into me ♪
♪ When you're unturned ♪
♪ Please fit up, up, up ♪
♪ Or am I just another one ♪
♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪
♪ To end the little weeks since you called me ♪
♪ I'm drunk enough ♪
♪ For the boat over so I can't see ♪
♪ I'm fucked up ♪
♪ Or am I just another one ♪
♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪
♪ Wait till you call me every time ♪
♪ I call this fate ♪
♪ You call me into me ♪
♪ When you're unturned ♪
♪ Please fit up, up, up ♪
♪ Or am I just another one ♪
♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪
[Music]
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