1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,580 (upbeat music) 2 00:00:02,580 --> 00:00:12,320 Hey everybody, welcome back. 3 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:18,200 This is the Phantom Power Artist Hour for June 9th, 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,440 2024, episode 23. 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:23,880 And today I'm joined by Emily Rana. 6 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,360 Otherwise known as Emily Deranged. 7 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,880 You guys know her music well in the space. 8 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,680 She's got four singles up here and she's doing really well. 9 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,040 Emily is from Massachusetts, 10 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,040 went to Berkeley, been a Nashville for about five years. 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,200 She really knows the game. 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,360 Great writer, great performer, very unique voice. 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,760 This conversation is a lot of fun. 14 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:50,080 And I say that about all of them, 15 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,120 but it's probably the most personal one 16 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,960 that I've ever had with any of the guests on this show 17 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,480 because Emily and I both talk about our sobriety. 18 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,840 And we also talk about music and value for value 19 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:03,680 and songwriting and AI and all that other fun stuff. 20 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:05,800 But I hope you guys stick around 21 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:07,960 and enjoy this conversation. 22 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:12,960 Emily is a truly unique artist in a world of copycats 23 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:16,280 and in a world of zagodes, so to speak. 24 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:20,000 So it was a real pleasure to have her in studio here today. 25 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,960 And I hope you guys enjoy the conversation. 26 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:27,560 We're gonna kick it off with a song you guys know quite well 27 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,640 that's done really well in this space. 28 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,080 We're gonna kick it off with someone else 29 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,480 and then we'll bring on the guest. 30 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:35,320 Are you ready? 31 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:37,920 Here we go. 32 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,120 ♪ Can't go anywhere without tripping on ♪ 33 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:47,120 ♪ The clothes you're like lying around and I swear ♪ 34 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:55,120 ♪ I'm tired every day, slipping away from my side ♪ 35 00:01:55,120 --> 00:02:00,120 ♪ And you don't care ♪ 36 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:07,720 ♪ Tanks are the strangest in my house, in my house ♪ 37 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:13,480 ♪ But it's easier to tell myself it's someone else, someone else ♪ 38 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:19,280 ♪ So step inside of my brain ♪ 39 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,680 ♪ Where I make excuses ♪ 40 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,360 ♪ I'm the boy, I'm the chair ♪ 41 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,360 ♪ Where I feel anxious ♪ 42 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:32,360 ♪ Turns out I'm a stranger in my own house, in my own house ♪ 43 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:38,640 ♪ But it's easy to tell myself it's someone else, someone else ♪ 44 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:42,840 ♪ Your dish is in the sink ♪ 45 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:47,840 ♪ In the middle of the weeks and I can't bring myself to you one ♪ 46 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:49,840 ♪ The self to you one ♪ 47 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,800 ♪ Sitting on the kitchen floor, yeah ♪ 48 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,000 ♪ I don't go out anymore ♪ 49 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,000 ♪ I don't know how I can see ♪ 50 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:02,000 ♪ To do it ♪ 51 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:09,560 ♪ Tens of days is strange, I'm in my house, in my house ♪ 52 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:16,480 ♪ But it's easy to tell myself it's someone else, someone else ♪ 53 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:21,160 ♪ So step inside of my brain ♪ 54 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,440 ♪ Where I make excuses ♪ 55 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,360 ♪ I'm the boy, I'm the chair ♪ 56 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,360 ♪ Where I feel anxious ♪ 57 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:35,000 ♪ Turns out I'm a stranger in my own house, in my own house ♪ 58 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:41,000 ♪ But it's easy to tell myself it's someone else, someone else ♪ 59 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,600 ♪ Where's I could kick you out and change the locks ♪ 60 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,800 ♪ Oh, I was said I was living alone ♪ 61 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,800 ♪ But we know I'm not ♪ 62 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:58,280 ♪ Step inside of my brain ♪ 63 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,560 ♪ Where I make excuses ♪ 64 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,360 ♪ I'm the boy, I'm the chair ♪ 65 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,360 ♪ Where I feel anxious ♪ 66 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:11,000 ♪ Turns out I'm a stranger in my own house, in my own house ♪ 67 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:18,000 ♪ But it's easy to tell myself it's someone else, someone else ♪ 68 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,000 ♪ So step inside of my brain ♪ 69 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:26,600 That is someone else here on the Phantom Power Artist Hour 70 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,160 and I'm thrilled to have in-house, in-studio, 71 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:31,400 and we're doing a little different today. 72 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:32,760 We're doing it on dynamic mics. 73 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:34,400 We're not going with condensers. 74 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,240 'Cause I wasn't happy with the last time I did in-house condensers. 75 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,360 But Emily deranged... 76 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,120 - Welcome. - Thanks. 77 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:43,640 - Happy to be here, Jim. 78 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,400 - I am, you and I have had a bunch of conversations, 79 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,160 but we've never really dove into the music, 80 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,680 the name change, the sobriety, all that. 81 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:57,040 So let's start with the name change. 82 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,040 First of all, I probably owe you an apology 83 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,240 because like every other old white guy, 84 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:02,680 I have screwed up your last name. 85 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:04,200 (laughing) 86 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,400 Is it, is it Ronna, Rona, what is it? 87 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,280 - Okay, so that's a complicated question. 88 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:13,320 - Actually, it's Ronna, that's how my family pronounces it. 89 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:14,160 - Okay. 90 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,440 - But it is a Sicilian last name. 91 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,280 And when I went... - Oh God, I'm so sorry I fucked that up. 92 00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:20,640 - No, no, it's okay. 93 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,480 And it actually used to be Ronna. 94 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,880 It changed when my family emigrated. 95 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,040 I don't know if it was a fucking Ellis Island mistake 96 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,400 or if it was on purpose, whatever it was, it changed. 97 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,320 So it was Ronna, so just the O and the A got flipped. 98 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:34,160 - Okay. 99 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,520 - And we went to Sicily and we met some random people 100 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,200 and we're talking about last names and stuff. 101 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,480 And they pronounced it very Italian like, "The Rona." 102 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:47,320 - Ooh. 103 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,200 - Which sounds more like Rona. 104 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:50,040 - Right. 105 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:51,320 - But no one in my family says that. 106 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,720 Also if you follow American grammar, 107 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,080 the two ends make it a raw sound. 108 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,240 - Okay, yeah, Rona, okay, I got it. 109 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,640 - Yeah, so it's Ronna, but if you wanna be really fancy, 110 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,280 you could say the Rona, but you have to do, 111 00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:06,360 you can't see what I'm doing, 112 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:07,360 but I'm doing the little... 113 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:08,200 - You're doing the thing. 114 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:09,040 - I'm doing the Italian thing. 115 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:10,560 - You're doing the Italian handbag. 116 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,400 - It's not even on purpose, like it just happens 117 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:13,840 when I say it like that. 118 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:16,600 - Well, I'm sorry for screwing up a Sicilian last name 119 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:17,920 because that's some heavy shit. 120 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,680 Like, you know, we're talking like Godfather stuff. 121 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:26,080 Well, I get it a lot too because people think I'm Italian. 122 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:26,920 - I thought that. 123 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:28,000 - No, we're Irish. 124 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,240 - I thought you're part of the club. 125 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:30,080 - Are you kidding me? 126 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:31,400 All the drunks in my family? 127 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:32,680 Are you kidding me? 128 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,440 Like myself included? 129 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:35,440 - Same. 130 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,160 - Yeah, it's, but I get it. 131 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,440 I've done a lot, but I know it, 132 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,400 but the whole Ellis Island name change thing, 133 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,000 it's funny you said that because like I was, 134 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,600 I was back down with my parents a couple of weeks ago 135 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,920 and I was looking at like pictures of the genealogy thing 136 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,600 that my mom got back and all of these headstones 137 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,640 and they're all misspelled because of Ellis Island. 138 00:06:58,640 --> 00:06:59,480 Yeah. 139 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:00,480 - They weren't really keeping track. 140 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:01,800 - No, they were just like, 141 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,040 write your name, make your mark next, you know, 142 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:05,880 make your mark next. 143 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,800 So, all right, so Emily, Rhonda, 144 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:14,200 but we're now moving into the Emily Dorenged world. 145 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:15,040 - Yes. 146 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:16,360 - Okay. 147 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,280 And I absolutely adore this music. 148 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,320 You gave me a sneak peek at it months ago 149 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,680 and I've been sitting on it for months 150 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,080 and I'm thrilled that Hate Me is out 151 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:27,720 and we're gonna finish the show with that. 152 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,880 But let's talk about the name change. 153 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,160 What, why, what, where, and how? 154 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,040 Why, now, why are you doing it? 155 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:40,040 - So, I was Emily Rhonda for a couple of years. 156 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,280 I moved to Nashville just to be a songwriter 157 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,000 for other people and then lockdown happened 158 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,440 and I found myself writing all these 159 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,480 ronji fucking songs like Three Way, 160 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:50,680 which is on value for value. 161 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:51,840 - Yeah. 162 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,640 - That no one was gonna cut. 163 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:55,520 (laughing) 164 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:56,520 But I loved them. 165 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:00,160 So, I like kind of really have hazardly was like, 166 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,040 I'm gonna do an artist project and just did it under my own name 167 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,680 because of the Rhonda Ellis Island debacle, 168 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:08,040 there isn't another one. 169 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:09,280 Like it's a fairly unique name. 170 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,800 So I was like, this is a fine artist name, whatever. 171 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:12,640 - Yeah. 172 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,480 - But. 173 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,240 - So how did you come up with, 174 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,760 what, why, why deranged? 175 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,800 Like do you feel like it's, it's artistic? 176 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:25,680 Do you feel like it matches your personality? 177 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,640 Is there some event in the past that you were like, 178 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,280 this is, this is how I'm going? 179 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:31,960 Like what, what was the birth of it? 180 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:38,640 - Well, I had just finished mixing the new mini album 181 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:39,920 that is gonna come out soon 182 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:41,880 and that's what Hate Me is the first single for 183 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,360 and it's a lot darker than my previous stuff 184 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,680 and I was talking to a really great friend of mine. 185 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:52,160 His name is Nathan and we collaborate 186 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:56,080 on like business ideas and he's really smart in that way. 187 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:56,920 - Nathan Dose. 188 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:57,760 - Nathan Dose. 189 00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:58,600 - Love him. 190 00:08:58,600 --> 00:08:59,440 - Good old Nathan Dose. 191 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:00,280 - Good dude. 192 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:01,120 - Yeah, he's the best. 193 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,280 So he has a lot of business insight 194 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,720 that I don't always think about 195 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,160 and he thinks a lot about branding 196 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,640 and the Emily deranged idea. 197 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,520 Like a name change seemed to fit. 198 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,080 I wanted to fit the brand better, like my own brand 199 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,280 and also have some separation between myself 200 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,400 and my artistry in a way that still felt authentic, 201 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,120 which is a really hard line to walk. 202 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:27,200 - Yeah. 203 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,000 - But we were brainstorming together 204 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,840 and I've always thought about, 205 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,440 or not always thought about, but since I was a kid, 206 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,960 my dad would kind of show me Emily the strange stuff 207 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:42,320 because he was like, this is you, 208 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,800 like the little emo goth girl with the black cat. 209 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:45,800 (laughing) 210 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:47,480 And so I was thinking about that 211 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,720 and I was like, how fucking funny would it be 212 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:55,400 to do Emily the strange but the deranged version? 213 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,280 Like we're just taking it a step further. 214 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,000 So it's kind of like a little bit of a nod 215 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,760 to my dad and also if you haven't noticed the spelling, 216 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,280 I did de apostrophe range so it's still Italian. 217 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,040 - No, okay, all right. 218 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:11,360 So yeah. 219 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,760 - So were you the emo kid and the family, 220 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,400 like in the family pictures, 221 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,480 everybody's in the nice color coordinated outfits 222 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,280 and you're the kid in like the all black 223 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,200 and the sullen face and the black lipstick, really? 224 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:23,360 - Yes, not the lipstick. 225 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,720 I wasn't ever a huge makeup person. 226 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:26,720 - Okay. 227 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,720 - But the all black, yeah, even the church pictures. 228 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,200 I'm like in a black fucking corset. 229 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,000 And it's only a corset because my mom made me dress up. 230 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,320 It would have just been like black t-shirt. 231 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:39,320 Yeah, that was the compromise. 232 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,600 Like you can wear black but it has to be nice. 233 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:42,840 - Okay. 234 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:44,000 - All right. 235 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,440 And you're originally from Massachusetts, right? 236 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:47,280 - Yeah. 237 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,000 - Okay, so what, and you gave it a little bit of it 238 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,720 away, you moved here to become a songwriter for other people? 239 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,280 - Yeah, that was the idea. 240 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,720 - When did you, you've been here a while? 241 00:10:58,720 --> 00:10:59,640 When did you move here? 242 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,640 - I moved in 2019, April. 243 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,040 So I just passed five years. 244 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:04,040 - Okay. 245 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,240 - Halfway through the 10 year town thing. 246 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:07,920 - Halfway, yeah. 247 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,600 Well, but you're, you're making a hell of a run at it 248 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,200 because I mean, you have a day job in the industry 249 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,440 and we can avoid that conversation if you'd like 250 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:18,680 but. - No, we can talk about it. 251 00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:20,960 - But I mean, you work in the industry. 252 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:21,800 - I do. 253 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:23,520 - You're writing for other people. 254 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:24,360 - Yes. 255 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,000 - And you're releasing your own music at the same time. 256 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:28,160 - Yes. 257 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,320 - So you're a little bit of a rare bird 258 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,360 because whereas a lot of people are like working 259 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,880 at Frothy Monkey or Starbucks, you're not. 260 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,200 - No, I'm not. 261 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,120 I just love music so much. 262 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,560 I can't not do anything else for even a second 263 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:45,000 is what it comes down to. 264 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,760 Even if it's like not even all creative, I just, 265 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:50,960 need to be involved somehow. 266 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,600 - So you, but you started writing for other people. 267 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,600 So what made you go, "I screw it, I'm gonna put this one 268 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:56,440 out myself." 269 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:02,440 - People kept telling me to, well I was always in bands. 270 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,280 That was how it started. 271 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,120 - Oh! 272 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:06,960 - I was a teenager. 273 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,800 Yeah, I had a pop punk band in college. 274 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,040 We were called Tidicus Finch, name changed to Cardinals. 275 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,360 - Tidicus Finch. 276 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:16,520 - Yes. 277 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:17,360 - I love that. 278 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:18,200 - Okay. 279 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:19,360 - I know, I know. 280 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,640 We should have never changed the name but anyway. 281 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,240 So I was fronting that band 282 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,840 and that was what I really wanted to do for a really long time. 283 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:28,600 I wanted to front a band. 284 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:34,720 But being in bands as a collaborative thing 285 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,120 is really difficult. 286 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:38,240 I don't know if you've done it, but-- 287 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:39,560 - Oh, you kidding me? 288 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:42,080 - Yeah, it's been married to four people. 289 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:42,920 Minimum. 290 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:44,280 Minimum. 291 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,960 So that didn't work out and I was so burnt out on it 292 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:48,800 by that point. 293 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,200 I was like, I just wanna write. 294 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:51,200 I just wanna make music. 295 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,120 I don't wanna be involved in any of this artist shit. 296 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,360 It's, I was depressed because of it. 297 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:57,280 Maybe not because of it. 298 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,440 I probably just have depression but it didn't. 299 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:00,800 (laughs) 300 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:01,800 It did not help. 301 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,720 Like my mental health was shit by the time this band broke up 302 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,720 and when I moved down here. 303 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,600 So I just didn't wanna be involved at all. 304 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,000 But I don't know, I'm a massacast. 305 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:15,240 I fucking missed it. 306 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,560 I missed performing and I missed things being about me. 307 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:19,400 - Yeah, well, okay. 308 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,960 So let me talk about Tidicus Finch. 309 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:22,880 Lead singer? 310 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:23,720 - Yes. 311 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:24,960 - Did you play guitar or keys or anything? 312 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:29,240 - Nope, I just jumped the fuck around in sane and wrote the songs. 313 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:34,240 - I have seen you live twice and I absolutely get it. 314 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,720 I absolutely understand why you would be the lead singer. 315 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:39,320 It makes complete sense. 316 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:40,240 (laughs) 317 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,560 Yeah, because I think you have, I mean, 318 00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:45,560 you have the stage persona for it. 319 00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:48,680 You have a really interesting voice as well. 320 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:51,280 That's, and I mean that in a good way because I think 321 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,680 so many pop writers or even female rock writers 322 00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:59,040 and performers, they sound like everybody else. 323 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:00,680 But as soon as I hear your voice, I'm like, 324 00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:02,840 "Oh, that's Emily." 325 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,960 Like you have a unique mid-frequency 326 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,120 that I'm sure beats the crap out of microphones in the studio 327 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:10,160 that stands out. 328 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,240 - I was really flattered recently 329 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,160 because I just recorded another short little EP 330 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,240 with Nick Wheeler from the All-American Rejects. 331 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:19,080 - Nice. 332 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:20,880 - Who's an angel human. 333 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,240 And I love him, but we were testing mics out 334 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,040 before we were picking which one we were gonna use. 335 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,960 And the one that ended up sounding best on my voice 336 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:29,680 was one he's only used one other time. 337 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,680 And I felt so flattered by that. 338 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,000 I was like, "Oh, my ego." 339 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:34,440 Like you never have to use this. 340 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,000 But my voice is so weird. 341 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,840 It requires this weird fucking microphone. 342 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:40,680 - That's great. 343 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:45,160 Like that, I mean, but to have that characteristic in this industry 344 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:50,160 when so many female artists sound the same. 345 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,280 And so many of them are doing this, 346 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:58,280 like, got this swollen mispronunciation sad girl thing. 347 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:05,600 But you have a nice razor's edge to your voice 348 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,560 and a nice brick coming at it. 349 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,200 - We can think Hayley Williams for that. 350 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,240 - Oh, got to get a lot of mimicking, yes. 351 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:12,080 (laughs) 352 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:12,920 - In my younger years. 353 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:13,760 - Yeah. 354 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:19,680 All right, so you left Tidacus Finch in Boston. 355 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:20,520 - Yes. 356 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,400 - Doing club gigs, regional touring, what was it? 357 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,600 - It was both club gigs, regional touring. 358 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:26,440 - Okay. 359 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,040 - At one point it ended up being just me and my guitar player 360 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:29,960 who was from New Jersey. 361 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,120 So I moved in with him and his parents in New Jersey. 362 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:33,960 - Well, that sounds fun. 363 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,200 - And it was a time, it was interesting. 364 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:37,400 It was very interesting. 365 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:41,360 23 and really broke. 366 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,880 I had a part time job as an under the table paid dog groomer. 367 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,160 And I scared a chihuahua so bad at shit on the table. 368 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,160 And eventually they just stopped calling me. 369 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:52,680 Like they didn't even formally fire me. 370 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,480 They just stopped asking me to come in. 371 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:55,600 - There's a song in there. 372 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,120 - There's a song in there that I haven't written yet. 373 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,640 So it was a time in my life to say. 374 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:06,160 - Hey, how do you get fired from an under the table dog grooming? 375 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,400 - I don't know, you were one of the really sad part. 376 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,520 Jim, my mom is a dog groomer. 377 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:11,680 I failed. 378 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,440 - You failed your poor, 379 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:14,840 - I failed my poor, like, name, 380 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,600 - And doorshane, yes, I did. 381 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,480 But I only got a job because I lied that I'd worked for her. 382 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:21,480 - Poor mama, Rhona. 383 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:22,600 - I know, Rhona. 384 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:23,440 - Sad. 385 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:24,600 - Damn it, I did it again. 386 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,440 I did it again, Rhona. 387 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,160 I gotta write that down. 388 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:29,320 I gotta write that down. 389 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,920 All right, so moving in with the guitar player 390 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:33,480 in Jersey, a couple of years doing that, 391 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,520 and you come to Nashville 2019. 392 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:37,360 - Yep. 393 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,080 - Okay, so. - 24. 394 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,280 - Yeah, what was your first experience of moving? 395 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,400 I mean, 'cause Nashville is on the surface, 396 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,120 somebody like you and artists like you, 397 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:53,040 on the surface, you don't see the opportunities for Nashville. 398 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,560 What did you see here that other people did not? 399 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,880 - I luckily knew a lot of people here already. 400 00:16:57,880 --> 00:16:58,720 - Okay. 401 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,120 - I went to Berkeley in Boston and Nashville is full of people 402 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:03,120 that I went to school with, 403 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,360 so it was kind of like a mini college reunion, 404 00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:07,440 which was nice, but I didn't, 405 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,480 a lot of people who moved to Nashville 406 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,000 after going to music school come immediately, 407 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:14,720 and I kind of took a detour, 408 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:16,560 which ended up helping me out, I think, 409 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:21,200 because I got to visit and have all these old friends 410 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,560 kind of tell me what was up and like tell me where to go, 411 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,560 and like where the non-country stuff was happening, 412 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,000 so I had a lot of insight info when I came down here, 413 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:28,840 which was helpful. 414 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,040 - You had, what did you study at Berkeley? 415 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:31,880 - Songwriting. 416 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:33,000 - Okay, good. 417 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,120 Yeah, because there's a, 418 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:40,280 emerging and very strong pop in the rock community here. 419 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,280 - Oh, and hip hop, and R&B. 420 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,240 There's so much cool shit happening. 421 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:45,800 - Yeah. 422 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,920 - Not that country isn't cool, but, 423 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,720 when you're from New England, you don't get it. 424 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:51,560 - Yeah. 425 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,320 - It's not, it's not innately, I, 426 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,440 it's just not my thing. 427 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,080 - How many, when you came down here to be a songwriter, 428 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:01,800 were you open to writing in country, 429 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:02,800 or were you like, 430 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:04,280 "I'm just gonna stick in this lane?" 431 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,320 - I was open to it if I could do 432 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:10,840 kind of the lane that Casey Moskrives and Marin Morris 433 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,160 went down. - Yeah. 434 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,960 - The sort of, like, it's country, but it's also a kiss off. 435 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:16,240 - It's got a bite to it, yeah. 436 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:17,080 - It's got a bite to it. 437 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:18,280 I was open to doing that. 438 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:19,800 - Yeah. 439 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,560 - Which, I've done a little bit, 440 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,240 if anything, I've done more like, country, hip hop stuff. 441 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:27,080 - Oh. 442 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,400 - Which is another cool thing that is happening within the scene. 443 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,480 - I'd be interested in learning more about that. 444 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,320 I love the reference to Casey and Marin, 445 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,000 and I probably screwed up her name too. 446 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:40,840 Is it Marin? 447 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:41,680 - I think it's Marin. 448 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,560 - God, it always tells me every time I say it, 449 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:44,400 I got it wrong. 450 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,000 (laughs) 451 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:52,000 But I have said many times that it is only the female artist 452 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,640 in the country genre that are pushing the boundaries 453 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,960 of lyrics, Marin. 454 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:58,880 - Oh, I absolutely agree with that. 455 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,200 - Casey, cam. 456 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:03,200 If you've heard of cam. 457 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:04,600 - Yeah, Diane. 458 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:05,440 - Yeah. 459 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:06,440 - That's a great song. 460 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,400 But not until there's nothing left as well. 461 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,720 Because they're the only ones that are pushing the boundaries 462 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:14,560 of it. 463 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,040 They're kind of like, it's kind of like going back to the old 464 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:21,120 co-minor's daughter in PTA and, you know, 465 00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:23,640 Loretta Lindvib, whereas the guys are just 466 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,680 regurgitating the old tropes. 467 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:26,520 - Right. 468 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:27,360 - Because they can. 469 00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:28,200 They have that privilege of-- 470 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:29,040 - Yeah. 471 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:30,920 - They're mediocre, and then they make a lot of money. 472 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:32,400 - Drives me nuts. 473 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:33,320 Drives me nuts. 474 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,240 Well, how many, so let's just dive into some weird specifics. 475 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:38,920 How many, you've been here five years? 476 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:40,560 How many songs would you say? 477 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,920 - I would say you've written in Nashville. 478 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,040 - I've written in at least 300, probably more than that. 479 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:47,880 More than that. 480 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,720 - Yeah, by yourself and co-writing with others and 300 easy? 481 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:51,560 Oh yeah. 482 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:52,560 - No, over 400. 483 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,280 Because I feel like, well, there was a point when I wasn't 484 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,080 also committing to doing the artist thing. 485 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,240 I was doing like 100 a year for like three years. 486 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,080 So it's definitely over 300 by this point. 487 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,320 - How has your opinion of songwriting changed 488 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:11,040 from studying at Berkeley to now? 489 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,440 - This is gonna sound really bad, but I almost wish I didn't do it. 490 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:16,360 - No, I get it. 491 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:17,960 - Yeah, yeah. 492 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:19,800 Music school is weird. 493 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,280 I'm very grateful for the opportunities that I had 494 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:23,360 and the people that I met. 495 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:26,160 I completely recognize how much of a privilege it was for me 496 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:27,440 to be in the position that I was in 497 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,240 and be able to go to the school that I went to. 498 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:36,120 But I, and I had amazing teachers too, 499 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:39,120 that taught me a lot and taught me things 500 00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:40,920 that I still think about when I'm in a writer's room. 501 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:42,600 So it wasn't all for nothing. 502 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:48,120 But there was no co-writing that was really encouraged. 503 00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:50,840 Like I think of teacher forced me to do it twice. 504 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:55,080 And all of modern music industry is collaboration, 505 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:56,680 whether it's pop, whether it's country, 506 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:58,240 like no matter what the genre is, 507 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,120 like people are creating more things together now successfully 508 00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:03,120 than by themselves. 509 00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:06,120 And also it's just more fun and more fulfilling. 510 00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:09,040 So when I came down here, I hadn't co-written at all. 511 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:10,920 Like I'd always written by myself. 512 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:12,800 So that was a new skill I had to learn. 513 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,080 But I also feel like, you know, 514 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,000 Berkeley is in Boston, Massachusetts. 515 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:22,000 Like it's the only music industry thing in that city. 516 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,320 And I feel like I've benefited so much 517 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:30,320 from being immersed in, you know, kind of a little fish 518 00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:34,080 big pond mentality and just being able to meet 519 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,560 all these different incredible people and collaborate. 520 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:41,000 And you get better being like, I feel like I've gotten 521 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,360 better actively doing it rather than learning about it. 522 00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:49,280 - It's a tough call because like there is some value 523 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,280 to learning the theory and learning the mechanics, 524 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,040 the structural mechanics to songwriting and music theory 525 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:56,720 and production and things like that. 526 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,160 But then again, you learn that stuff to break the rules. 527 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,040 I had a teacher that said that he's like, 528 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,920 you're gonna learn all of this to forget it. 529 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:04,760 - Yeah. 530 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,680 - And that's, I didn't know what he meant at the time, 531 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:08,040 but that's entirely true. 532 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,560 - And I think there's a, there's also a danger 533 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,000 in learning that stuff too because you might, you know, 534 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,480 have an idea for a song and a core progression 535 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,480 and your Berkeley brain goes, oh, well, 536 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,680 you're not supposed to do that, you know? 537 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,040 - Yeah, I even, to this day, I will hear songs 538 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,520 that break a rule that I've learned and I'll be like, 539 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,920 I'm so bothered because I have this real stuck in my head 540 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,200 and then I think about it and I'm like, 541 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:34,920 well, that song's like number one right now. 542 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:35,760 - Yeah. 543 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,680 - It proved, it just proved, it doesn't matter. 544 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,200 - Yeah, yeah, it's like, you know, like I was, 545 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,240 I was reviewing a song today, I wrote a blog today 546 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,480 for an artist, incidentally, out of Massachusetts 547 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,400 and like her use of a major third chord, 548 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:54,360 just, it just like, it just tweaks your brain in this set 549 00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:58,560 as key of C, you're not supposed to use a major third 550 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,120 in Nashville, right? 551 00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:02,080 You're not supposed to use a major third in pop music 552 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,000 and she does it brilliantly and it just absolutely tweaks 553 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:05,840 your brain. 554 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,560 I mean, that's the type of stuff that you don't get in school. 555 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:11,720 - Yeah, yeah. 556 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,360 'Cause there's too many rules. 557 00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:17,080 - And you have to learn them to forget them 558 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,960 and it's hard to step outside of that. 559 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,040 - Yes, it is. 560 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,160 - Well, so when you, for some of the songs 561 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,360 that we've had in the value verse 562 00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:29,440 and shout out to homegrown hits for, for day viewing, 563 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:30,280 three way. 564 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,760 - Yes, shout out to them, they're amazing. 565 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:37,600 - So with three way and with someone else, 566 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,560 that was written in a certain mindset 567 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,200 and now you've got hate me and you've got the other tracks 568 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,880 coming up on this EP, how do you separate 569 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,920 in your brain between Emily of the past 570 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:49,760 and Emily deranged now? 571 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,400 - I feel like they're the same actually. 572 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,800 Like I know that like the name changing 573 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,000 does feel like a big pivot or it looks like a big pivot 574 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,440 but I feel like it's just kind of been 575 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,320 like a general progression of growth. 576 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,400 Like someone else was the first song 577 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,120 I put out under my own name 578 00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:13,600 and I feel like it's just as part of the deranged version 579 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,200 of me as the Rhonda version, 580 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:16,640 it's just where the start was 581 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,440 and you can just see me 582 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,040 like further settling into like what my artist self 583 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:25,800 is supposed to be. 584 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,960 - I think it's more, knowing you as I do 585 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,800 and this is the first real in depth conversation we've had 586 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:34,360 but I think knowing you as I do, 587 00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:36,200 I think it's more authentic. 588 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,960 - Yeah, I think so too, 'cause someone else, 589 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,400 I love that song but I didn't write it for me. 590 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:42,520 Like I wrote it about me. 591 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:43,760 Like it was about my experience 592 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,360 but I wrote it with this other 593 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:49,640 Nashville songwriter Anna Klein in 2019, like a couple months 594 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,080 after I moved here and we were writing for pitch. 595 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,880 Like I think we even referenced like Camila Cabello 596 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,240 or something. - Oh my God, I would have never picked up 597 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:00,560 Camila out of that one. 598 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,600 - Yeah, there was something in the versatility 599 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,000 where we were like this kind of like reminiscent of that 600 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,800 or like whatever and the pre and the post are the same 601 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,680 and the first time I had heard that like graveyard 602 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,880 by Halsey had just come out and she did the same thing 603 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,440 so we were like yeah that's cool. 604 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,680 You know this is a cool fucking thing we can do. 605 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:24,560 But I loved the song as it's bone so much 606 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,680 and it was still like I came into that session being like 607 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,320 I've been thinking a lot about my anxiety 608 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,840 and how it's an unwanted health like house guest. 609 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:37,000 So it was still my experience and really personal 610 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,080 even if it wasn't supposed to be for me at the end 611 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:41,080 it just got to be. 612 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:42,840 I had the, you know. 613 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:43,840 - Yeah. 614 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,800 - Is that, okay is the song? 615 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,640 Forgive me but is someone else primarily about 616 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,080 a mental health? 617 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:55,280 - Oh it's entire mental health. 618 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,520 - Yeah, it's not a person, it's okay. 619 00:25:58,520 --> 00:25:59,880 - It's a personified thing. 620 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:00,720 - Okay. 621 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:01,560 - Yeah. 622 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:02,400 - All right. 623 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:03,240 - That's cool. 624 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:04,080 - Okay, no that's cool. 625 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,320 That puts a completely different spin on it. 626 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:12,280 Now you've got hate me out now and I've got two more 627 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,640 in my files here that you're, 628 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,360 that I know you're gonna drop into the space. 629 00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:18,000 What can you tell us before we move on 630 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,400 to some other topics? 631 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,400 Like what can you tell us about the other songs 632 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,840 that are gonna be coming up from this new project? 633 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:30,280 - Well this project is also the most, 634 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,880 I don't know if compact is the right word 635 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,120 but it very much feels like it's one thing. 636 00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:41,920 It's very specifically rooted in an experience 637 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:43,640 that I was going through when I wrote that, 638 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,680 I was getting sober when I wrote and recorded this record 639 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,160 and going through a horrible breakup 640 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,800 that kind of led me to my discovery that I needed to get sober 641 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,600 'cause I was just not handling it well 642 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,200 and really helped self destructively. 643 00:26:58,200 --> 00:26:59,040 - Yeah. 644 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:04,880 - So the other two songs that are going to at least be singles, 645 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,720 they're just like different parts of the story. 646 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:10,560 - Okay. 647 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:11,400 - Yeah. 648 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,920 - Well, it's been a little while since I've heard them 649 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:20,720 but again, I think it's a more authentic version 650 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,680 of who you are knowing you as I do 651 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,680 but as compared to breathe someone else in three way. 652 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:34,800 But let's talk about sobriety. 653 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,840 I know it's a big topic, it's a hard topic. 654 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,800 I don't mind talking about it 'cause I've been sober 655 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,680 for 23 years now and I know you referenced it the other day 656 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,680 on Instagram and I thought about you when I saw that 657 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,040 because you had mentioned two years. 658 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,640 - Yep, two years on Thursday. 659 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:56,480 - Good for you. 660 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:57,320 - Thanks. 661 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,520 - And the first thing I thought of was, 662 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,240 I remember that time for me and about two years in, 663 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,360 I felt like okay, I was kind of over the hump. 664 00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:08,920 It's like, I think I got it. 665 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:15,040 Because you go through two years of cycles 666 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,160 of the seasonal changes of bill paying 667 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,880 of friends coming and going, family members coming 668 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:22,720 and going. 669 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,960 - Holidays, holidays, celebrations. 670 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,080 - You're like, okay. 671 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,400 I think I got it. 672 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:34,640 Yeah, what, where, I mean, congrats. 673 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:35,480 - Thanks. 674 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,240 - And I understand why you did it. 675 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:41,320 - Me too. 676 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,080 (laughing) 677 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,160 - Yeah, what goes through your mind today 678 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:48,920 as you're thinking about it? 679 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:54,040 - I'm grateful for one. 680 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,840 I was, when you're in sobriety, 681 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,480 I'm sure as you know, like your sobriety anniversary 682 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,680 sort of become little birthdays. 683 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:04,520 - Yeah. 684 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,400 - And so mine was yesterday. 685 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,080 So there was like a lot of celebrating and reflecting 686 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:12,720 and- - I have a cup of tea. 687 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,360 - I have a cup of tea. 688 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:15,320 - A nice salad. 689 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,640 - What I had was a really big fucking cookie. 690 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:18,480 (laughing) 691 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:19,320 - There you go. 692 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:20,160 - That's what I had. 693 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:27,800 But it's been, you know, me thinking a lot about how 694 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:33,040 I feel like every, I think a lot of stuff is connected. 695 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,000 I think a lot of things in the body are connected. 696 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,320 Because alcoholism wasn't the only thing 697 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:40,160 that I was struggling with. 698 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,520 It was also depression and it was also OCD. 699 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,920 But I spent a lot of time ignoring how alcohol 700 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,240 factored in to all the other stuff 701 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,440 and was just trying to fix like pieces 702 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:52,680 of what my problem was. 703 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:53,520 - Yeah. 704 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,200 - And what it turned out to be was that everything was connected. 705 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,840 And like I can't treat one part of myself 706 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,000 without addressing the whole. 707 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,880 And I was speaking about this last night 708 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,240 and it just like made me more aware of it 709 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,080 when I said it out loud that I am not willing to. 710 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,120 Like I know that if I were to drink again, 711 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,280 it is not just the alcoholic part of me 712 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,880 that would flip out like everything else will follow. 713 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:27,360 And yeah, and I just, I don't, I don't. 714 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:28,200 - I know what I'm gonna do. 715 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:29,040 - I'm gonna do what I have to do to make sure 716 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:29,880 that doesn't happen. 717 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,520 - Yeah, I know that if I do it again, 718 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,120 I'm gonna lose everything I have. 719 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:34,680 - Yeah, yeah, exactly. 720 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:37,320 So. 721 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,400 - It's a, it's such a weird, you know, 722 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,520 you go through these ups and downs where it's like, 723 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,640 all right, I got it, but you're still like, 724 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,880 God, how do I describe this to other people? 725 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,200 And how do I get, because like you feel 726 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,200 that it's the right thing to do, 727 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,520 but you can't even necessarily, you know, 728 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:55,920 describe it to yourself. 729 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:02,120 - It also was a weird thing to kind of explain to my parents. 730 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,680 - When I told them about it. 731 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,880 Because my mom especially had a very specific idea 732 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,840 of what having a drinking problem looked like. 733 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:10,920 She was like, you're not homeless 734 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:12,640 and you're not like under a bridge. 735 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:13,480 - Doesn't matter. 736 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:14,320 - There were things like that. 737 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,560 And yeah, I actually ended up bringing her to a meeting 738 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:18,840 because she visited me. 739 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:19,680 - Oh, cool. 740 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:20,520 - Okay. 741 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,520 - Yeah, and someone was sharing their story 742 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,680 and it didn't look like anything she thought it 743 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,080 would have looked like and she was crying by the end of it. 744 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:31,320 She was like, I understand now. 745 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:32,160 - I get it now. 746 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,000 I'm like how, this like everything is a spectrum 747 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,400 and it's not gonna look the same. 748 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,560 The only common denominator is like you can't do it. 749 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,880 - Did you have to cut ties with any friends, 750 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,240 any people, any contacts? 751 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:50,240 - No, but I have noticed that I've had to distance myself 752 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:55,600 from some people and things. 753 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,000 It's more of like, 754 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,640 almost new people that come into my life 755 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,320 or people that have been in my life 756 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,520 because recovery isn't linear 757 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,920 and sometimes people slip. 758 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,720 And there's also been, 759 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,440 I think there's been more of checking in 760 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,320 with like how close do I wanna be to this person right now? 761 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,920 Like where's the line between like me being helpful 762 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,920 and me, it'd be detrimental to like my own sanity. 763 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,040 So I haven't like fully cut ties with anybody 764 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,880 but I have been practicing more of like maybe 765 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,080 there should be more space. 766 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:38,080 - Yeah, mine came on the heels of an event in Santa Barbara 767 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,960 with the police department. 768 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:42,800 - Oh! 769 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,200 - It's actually a really funny story 770 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,120 and I was talking to my friend about it 771 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,040 last night the guy who also ended up in the jail cell with me. 772 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:56,400 But I realized I had to quit 773 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:01,400 and then I spent probably another year or two 774 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,240 with the band as the sober guy. 775 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:06,080 - Oh. 776 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,320 - And we were touring a lot. 777 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:09,160 - Oh shit. 778 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,560 - And I was a lead singer, I was guitar player. 779 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,200 I was booking the shows, booking the tours. 780 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:22,960 And it just caused a huge rift. 781 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,360 I was the sober one and the other guys were not. 782 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,320 And I had to cut ties with them at that point. 783 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:34,320 And it took probably six or seven years for that 784 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:40,600 for those relationships to be repaired 785 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,520 because I walked away from the band, 786 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,520 I ended it, I shut the whole thing down. 787 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:49,520 And then they went on to do some other great things 788 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,560 and tour and have some great successes. 789 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,000 And I'm thankful they're both alive. 790 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,520 I'm thankful they're doing well 791 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,880 and I'm thankful that they're still two 792 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,240 of my dearest friends ever but it took a long time 793 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,280 to repair that. 794 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:06,120 - Yeah. 795 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,800 - 'Cause it's hard when you do it, when you shut it down. 796 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,760 Especially if everybody in your circle 797 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,400 is getting fucked up every now. 798 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,360 - Yeah, it's weird. 799 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:22,360 I, even with my best friend in the whole world, 800 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,760 I felt like there was some weirdness between us for a while 801 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,760 just because it kind of changes you when you stop. 802 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,360 Like you're not the same person anymore. 803 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:33,200 - No. 804 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,760 - You thought process changes? 805 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,680 - Yeah, yeah, you don't, it, 806 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,080 it's just kind of wild. 807 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,080 - Yeah, it's funny. 808 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:48,080 I had a, I was talking to my buddy last night about it. 809 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:54,200 He's the bass player and he was our producer. 810 00:34:55,200 --> 00:35:00,200 And I told him, we were talking about sobriety 811 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,080 'cause he was like, hey Adam, 812 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,440 I don't mean to make a lie to it or make a joke of it 813 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,280 but he's like, and I hadn't spoken to him in about six months. 814 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:08,800 He's asked him how he was doing. 815 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,440 He said, good, he said, 816 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,960 you know, I went on a four month sobriety binge 817 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:14,000 and he's like, 818 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:14,840 - That's a funny way to put it. 819 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,760 - Yeah, and I, you know, 820 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,800 but I didn't take offense to it 821 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,240 and I understand what he's saying 822 00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:21,080 and where he's coming from and he's like, 823 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:21,920 man, it's wild. 824 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:22,920 It's like every time I do it, 825 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:24,400 like I drop 25 pounds, 826 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,800 like I get clearheaded, you know, all this stuff. 827 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:29,640 - Yeah. 828 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:30,480 - And I'm like, good. 829 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,760 And he's like, I know that's nothing compared 830 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,160 to what you've done and what you've gone through 831 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,840 but it is always, he said it, 832 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,240 every time I come at the end of it 833 00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:42,520 and I decide to have a beer again. 834 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:43,760 He's like, I'm always, 835 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:44,600 I'm always kinda like, 836 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,000 why do I even do this anymore? 837 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:48,160 You know? 838 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:48,880 And I think, you know, 839 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,480 age has a lot to do with that too. 840 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,560 And I don't know about you, 841 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:57,560 I've lost dear friends and I've lost a sibling to alcoholism. 842 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:03,920 But I had this, I say all of that, 843 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:08,360 knowing full well that as I said earlier, 844 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,000 if I start again, it's over. 845 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:11,840 - Yeah. 846 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,000 - Right? 847 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:14,840 But I do have a good joke about all of it. 848 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:16,840 And my wife knows this, my daughter knows this 849 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:18,320 and I told my friend this yesterday. 850 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:19,320 - Oh, I love a good joke. 851 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,600 So I said, look, if the doctor tells me, 852 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,640 Mr. Costello, it's really bad news. 853 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,080 Like you got four months, there's nothing we can do. 854 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:29,720 It's game over. 855 00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:33,160 If I get that news, I'm not falling off the wagon. 856 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,520 I am jumping headfirst. 857 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,120 I'm gonna do like, all right, it's on. 858 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:38,960 Why not? 859 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,120 Like, you know, that's, I'm kind of joking 860 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,680 but I'm also kind of serious because that's the, 861 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,000 that is the, that is the really hard part of the sobriety 862 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,560 because you, because you miss it so much, 863 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,760 you miss what it feels like. 864 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,280 But you also know that if you do it, it's game over. 865 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:58,920 - Jim, it is so funny you say that 866 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,840 because I make a very similar joke. 867 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,240 I'm also a vegetarian on top of being sober. 868 00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:06,160 I've always been a vegetarian. 869 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,920 - Good Lord woman, why would you put yourself through all that? 870 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,400 - I was, I was raised vegetarian. 871 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,840 So I've never, I've never knowingly had meat. 872 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:16,720 So I don't even know what I'm missing out on. 873 00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:17,560 - All right, good. 874 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,240 All right, fair enough, fair enough. 875 00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:24,240 - With that being said, I make 99% serious jokes 876 00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:30,000 about my last meal being a giant steak with heroin on top. 877 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:30,960 - With a brandy? 878 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:31,920 - With heroin. 879 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:32,760 - Ooh. 880 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:33,600 - Just sprinkled on it. 881 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:34,440 - Sure. 882 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:35,280 - Yeah, like, why the fuck not? 883 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,160 If I'm gonna die, I'm gonna go out 884 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:38,480 not the way that I lived. 885 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,760 - If the state of Tennessee convicts you 886 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,160 and you're going into the gas chamber, 887 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:45,280 that's your last meal. 888 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:46,160 - Steak with heroin. 889 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:47,000 - Right. 890 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:48,920 - And a brand, I mean, you might as well. 891 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:49,760 - And a brandy. 892 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:50,600 - I know, I just, all of it. 893 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:51,440 Yeah, I don't know. 894 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,040 - The heroin laced on top of the steak for whatever reason. 895 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,240 - It just seems like really, it's nice choice. 896 00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:58,600 - I was puke everywhere. 897 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,600 I would like not be well, but I'm gonna be dead. 898 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:01,800 So it doesn't really matter. 899 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,920 - And you should throw in a pack of unfiltered camels. 900 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,840 I mean, really, just go out on top. 901 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,920 Boy, this is, this is not brandy though. 902 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,600 I missed, it's tequila, tequila is really. 903 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:14,440 - Oh really? 904 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:15,280 - Yes. 905 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,720 - Mine is, mine's Jack. 906 00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:18,960 - Hmm. 907 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,360 - Yeah, like that line from "Sent of a Woman" 908 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,720 when Al Pacino says, "I can't remember the name 909 00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:25,960 "of the other actor he was with, 910 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,520 "but Al Pacino orders a John Daniels." 911 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,400 And the kid who is assisting him says, 912 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:31,480 "Isn't it Jack Daniels?" 913 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,960 And he goes, "Son, when you know him as well as I do, 914 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:34,880 "you call him John." 915 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,160 (laughing) 916 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:38,000 That always took me. 917 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,640 - Wow, oh, that's awesome. 918 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,120 - Well, this might be the darkest fan of power artists. 919 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:43,280 Our, we've ever had. 920 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:44,120 - Hey. 921 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,920 - Red meat and cigars, death sentences, drug addictions? 922 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:48,760 Fantastic. 923 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,880 - You gotta joke about it. 924 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:51,720 - You do. 925 00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:53,960 - You gotta laugh, Jim. 926 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:54,920 - Yeah, I know. 927 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,400 - No, this is, this is good. 928 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,120 So, let's strip the gears out of this whole thing 929 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:01,840 and let's talk about something else. 930 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:02,680 - Okay, okay. 931 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,760 - How, now you've been doing this Bitcoin thing 932 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,840 with us for a couple of months now. 933 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,120 - Yes, since February. 934 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,600 - Yeah, what you take on this whole thing? 935 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:18,600 - I mean, and maybe throw in a little bit about how it, 936 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,240 your impression of it since you literally have a day job 937 00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:22,880 in the industry. 938 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,960 What, what's your take on your experience so far 939 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,160 and where you see it going? 940 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:35,640 - I feel like I've just been flabbergasted the whole time 941 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,360 and I always, I always, whatever I tell people 942 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:40,760 what I'm doing now, I'm like, oh yeah, 943 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,360 I'm like involved with this Bitcoin stuff. 944 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,360 People look at me like I've turned into one of those jocks. 945 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:46,840 - They're like, what is it? 946 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:47,680 - What is it? 947 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:48,800 - I thought you said you were not doing drugs. 948 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,240 - Yeah, boys in the basement with, 949 00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:53,720 you know, they have like a fucking Bitcoin computer 950 00:39:53,720 --> 00:39:55,360 or whatever. 951 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,160 And they always look at me weird and I'm like, 952 00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,320 no, no, no, no, hear me out. 953 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,120 It's not what it sounds like. 954 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:02,840 - We're not running drugs. 955 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,840 - And it's been interesting to watch. 956 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,720 I feel like my experience with it is still really early, 957 00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:13,920 but being on both sides of the industry 958 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,880 because I'm still running my music just as hard 959 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,440 through Spotify and Apple Music, 960 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,440 but it's from a monetary standpoint. 961 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:29,840 It is really cool to actually feel like 962 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:34,880 there's being compensation that is happening in real time. 963 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:35,880 - Yeah. 964 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,680 - Especially before we, I don't even remember if we were live, 965 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,440 but you just told me about someone who had a number one song 966 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,240 and then only got a thousand dollars for it. 967 00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:44,080 - Oh yeah, that dude. 968 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:45,640 You're gonna meet him in July. 969 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:50,360 - Yeah, yeah, and that's tragic and also completely unfair. 970 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,920 And I also, you know, being on the industry side, 971 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,920 I feel like there's just, I'm seeing a lot of bullshit happening 972 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,840 with people being taken care of financially. 973 00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:09,560 So I feel like this is an opportunity where, 974 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,080 and I hate to only talk about the money side of it, 975 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,760 but also it's hard not to because music is a business. 976 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,240 - I think it's important to talk about the money of it. 977 00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:20,080 Everybody ever likes to talk about money, 978 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:24,360 but I think it's important for you in Joe Martin, 979 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,160 Arrayus, Just Loud, anybody who's in this space. 980 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,840 I think it's really critical for you guys to talk about 981 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,280 the income that you're making, 982 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,280 even if it's only like 10 bucks off a song. 983 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:37,800 - Yeah, I think so too. 984 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,760 Like I remember growing up and being told, 985 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:43,400 like you never ask about anybody's salary, 986 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,360 and I'm just like, why the fuck not? 987 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,680 The only reason we're not supposed to be talking about that stuff 988 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:53,680 is because the people high up don't want us to figure out 989 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,640 how unfair it all is. 990 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,080 - I think that I was raised the same way, 991 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,680 and I believe that that is correct in many social settings. 992 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,960 You don't talk about how much people are earning 993 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:07,800 on their regular day jobs. 994 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:12,120 In the context of artists getting compensated, 995 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,000 I think it's critical for you and everybody else 996 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,120 to be talking about how much you're making. 997 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,440 - Yeah, 'cause it's sad how much it is. 998 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:20,280 - Yeah, yeah. 999 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,120 And you have an insight seat to it 1000 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,840 because you work for one of the performing rights organizations 1001 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:25,640 here in town. 1002 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,960 And another guy that I brought into the space, 1003 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,840 Tony, who's with the blue house band, who you should check out. 1004 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:34,680 - Oh yeah, yeah. 1005 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,640 - Yeah, Tony, we put one of this songs up a couple days later 1006 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,200 and I ran into him and he's like, dude, this is amazing. 1007 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,640 He's like, I made like five bucks in the like a day. 1008 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,640 I'm like, yeah, that's just the start. 1009 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,240 Like, and you might think that, oh, five bucks is not a big deal. 1010 00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:51,520 - It is when you make five bucks in a month. 1011 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,920 - Or like, with the other streams, so this is, yeah. 1012 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,720 - 100,000 streams and you get five dollars. 1013 00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:02,960 So it's really critical that you guys not be ashamed to talk about. 1014 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:03,800 - Yeah. 1015 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:04,640 - The money. 1016 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:05,480 - I agree. 1017 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,320 - Because you guys, I think it's critical for you guys 1018 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,840 for lack of a better term and forgive me for being vocal, 1019 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,040 but to fucking shame Spotify for what they're doing. 1020 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:16,880 - Yeah. 1021 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:18,120 - You know? 1022 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:19,040 - I agree. 1023 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,800 And it's, but sadly, it's like not just Spotify. 1024 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,160 It's just the way the industry is set up as a whole. 1025 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:26,280 - Yes, absolutely. 1026 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:27,120 - Yeah. 1027 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:27,960 - Absolutely. 1028 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,640 - I feel like, even though they seem like this really big thing, 1029 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,920 I feel like they're just another cog in the whole thing 1030 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,640 where they're doing what's gonna keep them afloat 1031 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:39,440 because it's keeping labels afloat. 1032 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,560 And it's just, it's just snake. 1033 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,480 That doesn't stop. 1034 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:44,320 - Yeah. 1035 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:45,160 - Yeah. 1036 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,440 - Well, since you work for one of the PROs 1037 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,280 and you see that there is now a direct exchange, 1038 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,320 like if Chad F or Boris and over in Europe, 1039 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,280 or Oystein and Europe, or even if Abby, 1040 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,640 and down in Australia, likes your music 1041 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,240 and sends you money directly, 1042 00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:07,000 you have an inside scoop as to how this whole, 1043 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:08,280 how this all works. 1044 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,040 Where do you see, or do you see, 1045 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:13,920 performing rights organizations, 1046 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,320 getting in the middle of this, 1047 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:16,640 or getting involved in this, 1048 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,160 or is there nothing they can do about it? 1049 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:23,480 - I don't know how they would get involved in it. 1050 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,760 Like I also kind of telling themselves 1051 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,520 it's probably nothing to worry about 1052 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:32,680 until it's too late. 1053 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,640 - Interesting. 1054 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,200 - 'Cause I, it's never, 1055 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:42,800 I've been working for a PRO since I've lived here. 1056 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:44,400 I've been working for them for five years. 1057 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:45,240 - Oh wow. 1058 00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:48,400 - And no one has ever uttered the word Bitcoin before. 1059 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:49,240 No one has mentioned it. 1060 00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:50,080 - No shit. 1061 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:50,920 - Nothing. 1062 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,320 - What about, what about Ethereum or NFTs? 1063 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:54,160 - No. 1064 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:55,000 - No, really. 1065 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,120 - Nope, AI, we've been talking about AI, 1066 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,360 but not Bitcoin. 1067 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,720 So it's just, and I mean, 1068 00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:07,360 I'm not in a very high level department, 1069 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,080 so I don't really know what's going on 1070 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:10,840 in other areas of the company, 1071 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,400 but it just doesn't seem like something 1072 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,480 that's a concern and like that might be a mistake. 1073 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,160 But also at the same time, do we even want, 1074 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:20,880 PROs involved? 1075 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:22,840 'Cause it kind of feels like this value for value 1076 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,680 is also a really great place for people 1077 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,560 to consciously make decisions about where they want to put 1078 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,920 their money, where they want to put their time. 1079 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:35,920 And it's free from any other thing. 1080 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,320 - Yeah, I get that question a lot from people 1081 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,120 when I'm onboarding them or when I'm talking to them about it, 1082 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,280 and they ask, well, what is, 1083 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,320 what is BMI or ASCAP or CSAC going to do about it? 1084 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,160 And I'm glad to hear you say the same thing. 1085 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,800 I don't know where they could insert themselves into this. 1086 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,720 It's the same thing, it's like if you were busking 1087 00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:01,800 at Pikes Market and Seattle, 1088 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,640 and you're standing there on the corner with your guitar, 1089 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,280 and you're blasting through your songs 1090 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:07,760 and people are throwing in money, 1091 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:09,800 or they're not because they don't like it, 1092 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:11,000 and that's their choice. 1093 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:12,560 - Exactly, there's a lot of choice. 1094 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,440 I mean, I guess there's choice involved in all streaming, 1095 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,280 like if you don't like the song, you don't play it. 1096 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,040 - Yeah, if you don't like the song on Spotify or Title, 1097 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:20,520 or whatever, you just skip through it, right? 1098 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,080 But if you like it, you have that opportunity 1099 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:24,720 to compensate the artist directly, 1100 00:46:24,720 --> 00:46:27,480 and I don't know, like if you're standing there 1101 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:31,840 in Pikes Market playing, busking with your guitar case open, 1102 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,280 and there's a representative from BMI, they're going, 1103 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:35,400 "Oh, well, there's a dollar, 1104 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,000 "let me take my 12 cents out of that dollar." 1105 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:39,080 There's no way in hell. 1106 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:40,200 It's the same thing here. 1107 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:44,360 I don't know how they would ever insert themselves into it. 1108 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:49,040 - I, well, BMI and ASCAP actually, 1109 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,960 there as far as I know, are fully nonprofit 1110 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,160 and do not take anything out of, 1111 00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:00,920 like if anyone's taking a cut, it's publishers and labels. 1112 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,080 ASCAP and BMI do not profit off of anything. 1113 00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:05,800 CSAC does though, 1114 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:11,680 which kind of makes CSAC more coveted, 1115 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:16,760 because the idea is if they are taking a piece, 1116 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,640 they might work harder for you, which is also, 1117 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,560 it's a whole strange idea, 1118 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,520 and BMI is also trying to adopt some sort of thing 1119 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:26,480 that's similar to that. 1120 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:31,480 I'm not entirely sure, but it's, I don't know. 1121 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,160 I don't know what else to say about that. 1122 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,800 - Yeah, well, and I respect that. 1123 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,880 I know we can't get too far into that, 1124 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,000 but explain just for those of us, 1125 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:48,560 for those of listening who don't know what a PRO is, 1126 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,280 a performing rights organization, 1127 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,400 can you explain to them what ASCAP BMI and CSAC do? 1128 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:56,240 - Yes. 1129 00:47:56,240 --> 00:48:02,400 So ASCAP, CSAC and BMI are basically licensing companies. 1130 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,720 So every time a song is performed, 1131 00:48:05,720 --> 00:48:09,560 songwriters and publishers are expected to get compensated 1132 00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:10,640 for those performances, 1133 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:12,480 but the performances aren't only live, 1134 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,840 their performances with audio recordings, 1135 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,360 like if it's in a public establishment, 1136 00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,560 like a restaurant or a store, 1137 00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:23,200 if you are playing music in that establishment, 1138 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:24,720 that is money, there is money there 1139 00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:27,440 that needs to go to the songwriters and the publishers. 1140 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:32,440 So these establishments by law have to have license. 1141 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,440 - They have to have a license. 1142 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,280 From CSAC BMI and ASCAP because most countries only have one, 1143 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:43,080 we have three for some reason and most songwriters, 1144 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,240 most songs end up having all three on them 1145 00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:48,920 because it's not like ASCAP writers only write 1146 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:50,920 with ASCAP people or stuff like that. 1147 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,120 So it's a little bit messy in that way. 1148 00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,160 So you kind of have to, which kind of sucks, 1149 00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:58,720 you have to have all three licenses 1150 00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:02,280 when you have a business or a venue. 1151 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:06,400 And then this isn't my department 1152 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,560 and then somehow the music that is played is kept track. 1153 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:15,560 Like there is technology that these PROs use 1154 00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:22,040 where we can tell what songs are being played 1155 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,560 and where and how much money that warrants 1156 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:30,560 and the money that is paid through people buying licenses 1157 00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:34,360 that money gets distributed to the writers and the publishers. 1158 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:35,200 - Okay. 1159 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,520 - And 100% of that does go to the writers and publishers 1160 00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,000 at ASCAP and BMI but not CSAC. 1161 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:42,640 CSAC does take a cut. 1162 00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:43,640 - Okay. 1163 00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:44,540 All right. 1164 00:49:44,540 --> 00:49:48,640 So you alluded to the fact that AI is the hot topic around this. 1165 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:49,480 - AI, yes. 1166 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,040 - Dive into that. 1167 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:53,040 What are you hearing? 1168 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:53,960 What do you see? 1169 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,200 - Well, it was hot for a second and then it died, 1170 00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:00,480 at least here because Tennessee just passed a law that-- 1171 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:01,480 - The Elvis Act. 1172 00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:06,480 The Elvis Act that all AI is basically public domain. 1173 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:08,360 Like if you create some of the AI, 1174 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:13,520 you cannot profit off of it, which saves a lot of people's asses. 1175 00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:14,600 - Yep. 1176 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,360 - But as far as I know that is also only a thing in Tennessee. 1177 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,840 So like the Nashville office isn't concerned about it anymore 1178 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:21,600 but I don't know about elsewhere. 1179 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,320 - I'm surprised California and New York 1180 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,320 haven't done something similar. 1181 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:27,720 - They should. 1182 00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:28,880 Everyone should. 1183 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,920 I'm honestly surprised Tennessee did as quickly as they did 1184 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,120 because it was a really nice thing to do for people 1185 00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:36,320 and like our state isn't really known for that. 1186 00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:37,160 - Hmm. 1187 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:38,000 (laughs) 1188 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:39,240 They have a different set of values here. 1189 00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:40,080 - Yes, they do. 1190 00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,760 They do, which I did not think would ever align with mine 1191 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:44,160 but this time it worked out. 1192 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:45,480 - Yeah. 1193 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,320 Well, I think it just goes to show how powerful 1194 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:53,160 the entertainment industry in Nashville is. 1195 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,280 - I think it also shows how people, 1196 00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:58,800 like even though monetarily it isn't always shown, 1197 00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,680 people do value authentic creativity 1198 00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,880 and people do not want to see that get replaced. 1199 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:10,280 - Does the rise of AI, does it concern you as a songwriter? 1200 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:15,760 - I don't think about it too much and I think, 1201 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:20,960 I don't think it does and maybe it's naive of me 1202 00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:25,960 but I do fully believe that even the creatives 1203 00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,080 that are raking in the millions of dollars 1204 00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,240 and it would be so easy for them to just be like, 1205 00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:34,920 have AI do it, I'm not gonna work anymore. 1206 00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:36,640 I think music is too magical 1207 00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:38,440 and I think collaborating is too magical 1208 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:42,080 that people are gonna wanna stop that just to make life easier 1209 00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:46,600 because the thing is being creative is hard 1210 00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,920 and like it's a hard industry 1211 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,120 and we already are choosing to do it anyway. 1212 00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,040 Like we could go do something else 1213 00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,240 that makes us maybe even more money. 1214 00:51:56,240 --> 00:51:57,760 - Oh, the songwriter does. 1215 00:51:57,760 --> 00:51:58,600 - Most certainly could. 1216 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,200 - And is not as emotionally or mentally taxing. 1217 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:05,600 So there is a clear choice for creatives 1218 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,360 who genuinely want to be creative 1219 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:11,280 and no matter what labels say or what publishers say, 1220 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,880 I think the music industry power is ultimately 1221 00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,440 where the creatives are because if people aren't creating shit, 1222 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,120 it's not gonna happen and I do think, 1223 00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:23,360 I mean AI is really, really smart but I feel like you can't, 1224 00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:29,520 I don't think artists are gonna want to cut those songs. 1225 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,800 I just don't see it happening. 1226 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,320 - Well let me play devil's advocate. 1227 00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:40,320 Like if you could cut a song and by using AI, 1228 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:46,840 you save a thousand dollars on having to pay 1229 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,560 studio musicians would that make a difference? 1230 00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,560 And that's it, I wanna throw up in my mouth 1231 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:55,040 for saying it to be honest with you. 1232 00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:56,560 - Well how is that different than a producer 1233 00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,360 just using MIDI tracks? 1234 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:00,760 - I don't know. 1235 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:05,360 'Cause that's the same, I mean, maybe it's less time. 1236 00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,280 Maybe it's less production time. 1237 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:09,720 - Yeah, I think part of the issue with my argument 1238 00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:12,160 is I don't fully understand how AI works. 1239 00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:13,000 - Well I don't. 1240 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:14,800 - Yeah. - Or like what it's supposed to be filling in. 1241 00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:19,800 I feel like trying to avoid it as a tool would be silly 1242 00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,720 because it's just, it's here now. 1243 00:53:22,720 --> 00:53:23,720 - Yeah. 1244 00:53:23,720 --> 00:53:25,600 - I don't, I personally don't know how to use it 1245 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:27,040 but if I go into a session and someone's like, 1246 00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:28,440 we should try this, I'll probably be like, 1247 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:29,760 let's see what happens. 1248 00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:30,600 - Yeah. 1249 00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:32,560 - You know, but at the same time you can't do that 1250 00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:35,560 because anything you make with AI and Tennessee is, 1251 00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:36,560 you can't. 1252 00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:37,600 - You're not gonna be able to. 1253 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:39,280 - Yeah, so it might, that doesn't work. 1254 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,880 - Emily deranged voice or anything like that. 1255 00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,080 - Yeah, you can't profit off it anyway. 1256 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,360 So that, no, I don't even know what the point of it is. 1257 00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,040 - Well, I'm thinking out loud. 1258 00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:53,880 But I find it fascinating as to where it's going to go. 1259 00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,320 I think you're point about, hey, how is that any different 1260 00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,960 than using MIDI or using samples already? 1261 00:53:59,960 --> 00:54:01,960 Yeah, maybe not, right? 1262 00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:03,920 - 'Cause for that, then that realm 1263 00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:05,040 it might not be different, 1264 00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:06,640 might not make any difference at all. 1265 00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:07,880 It might just make, 1266 00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:09,960 making, building a track faster. 1267 00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:10,800 - Yeah. 1268 00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,200 I actually, on one of the review shows that I did, 1269 00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:20,040 I reviewed a song that was completely in it 1270 00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:21,400 that was done in the AI. 1271 00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:23,120 - What was that like? 1272 00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,200 - It was hook, it was hooky hook, 1273 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,160 hooky hooky, poppy pop, right? 1274 00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:31,440 But it wasn't, it wasn't like, 1275 00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:35,720 like Taylor, ah, not Taylor. 1276 00:54:35,720 --> 00:54:39,520 It wasn't like, who is it? 1277 00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,440 Sabrina Carpenter or Deweleepa, 1278 00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,560 like it wasn't that perfect. 1279 00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,560 'Cause I love pop, I love a great pop song. 1280 00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:50,400 - Oh, so do I. 1281 00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,440 I was listening to something in the car on my way here. 1282 00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:56,520 - Yeah, like, like Spice Girls is one of my dirty pleasures, right? 1283 00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,720 So, and I listened to it and I'm like, 1284 00:54:59,720 --> 00:55:03,640 okay, musically, it was okay, 1285 00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,240 it was very stereotypical, 1286 00:55:07,240 --> 00:55:09,360 and the lyrics were not deep at all, 1287 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:10,760 and pop music really isn't, 1288 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,400 but it was, the lyrics were kind of nonsensical, 1289 00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:17,560 in a way, but it caught me off guard, 1290 00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:19,440 because like, when I listened to it the first time, 1291 00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,160 I was like, what is that? 1292 00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:23,240 Why am I so interested in this? 1293 00:55:23,240 --> 00:55:27,000 What, so it obviously was written well enough, 1294 00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,640 and produced well enough to catch my ear, 1295 00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:31,720 and make me listen to it, 1296 00:55:31,720 --> 00:55:34,280 because I'm a bit of a jerk in terms of like, 1297 00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,960 when I hear a new song, if I don't like it, 1298 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:42,480 if I can guess where it's going to go, 1299 00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,080 in terms of melody, beat, chord structure, any of that, 1300 00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:46,720 if I can guess any of that, 1301 00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:49,840 I'm gonna change the channel and dump it, 1302 00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:51,360 and I was like, why am I, 1303 00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:52,800 and I got through the whole thing, 1304 00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:56,400 and then I learned that the whole thing was AI, 1305 00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,480 and I was like, oh God, I got suckered in. 1306 00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:03,680 You know? - That's, so the vocals were AI too. 1307 00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:05,040 - Oh yeah, everything. 1308 00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:05,880 - Interesting. 1309 00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,360 - It's like, I've been used, I feel so violent. 1310 00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:10,440 - Did it sound like something was missing? 1311 00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:13,800 - Quality lyrics. 1312 00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:17,480 - But that was it, like nothing else felt off. 1313 00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,920 Okay, that's horrifying, that's really scary. 1314 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:23,760 - And the song structure, it followed the pattern, 1315 00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,480 but it was like, some of the changes were a little, 1316 00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:31,960 not the changes, but the transitions between the sections 1317 00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,800 were a little odd. 1318 00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:39,280 And I mean that in the sense of you and I have both studied theory, 1319 00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:41,240 we know the things you shouldn't do. 1320 00:56:41,240 --> 00:56:44,080 We also have written enough that we know where to break through 1321 00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:45,520 rules and how to get away with that. 1322 00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:46,760 This was a little something else. 1323 00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:51,280 It was kind of like, it kind of like a dislocated shoulder 1324 00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:52,120 or something like that. 1325 00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:53,680 You're like, that's kind of weird. 1326 00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,240 Like, you need to pop it back in, it still works, 1327 00:56:56,240 --> 00:57:01,240 but it's like, so I kind of felt like taking advantage of, 1328 00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:04,400 I guess is what you would say. 1329 00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:06,440 - Well yeah, you feel kind of duped. 1330 00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:08,240 - Yeah. - No, none of that was real. 1331 00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:09,560 - Yeah. 1332 00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,880 And I love the, and I love the artistry of this whole thing. 1333 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:14,880 I love the challenge of writing a good song 1334 00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,560 and I love finding artists that I believe in. 1335 00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:22,560 And yeah, I just felt like, I got to, I don't know. 1336 00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:26,800 And that's a terrible phrase. 1337 00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:29,120 And I don't mean to use it out of context, 1338 00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:32,640 but I felt taking advantage of it kind of like duped, you know? 1339 00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,120 - I think I just feel really hopeful 1340 00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:40,120 that a lot of people feel the same way about actually making stuff. 1341 00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:44,640 Yeah. - That won't be so easily replaced. 1342 00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,480 But it also is horrifying to know that it's like almost 1343 00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,240 undetectable, 'cause I haven't listened to it myself. 1344 00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,160 I don't know how good it is, but I hear that it's good. 1345 00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:55,640 - Well, you can, I mean, undetectables the thing, right? 1346 00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:59,360 Because we're now seeing, you know, photos and videos 1347 00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:01,200 that are like, whoa, wait a second. 1348 00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:05,600 Yeah, there was just that whole thing with like fake Taylor Swift 1349 00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:07,360 Nudes and just like. 1350 00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,960 - Or fake Trump and handcuffs and getting in fights 1351 00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,040 out in front of Trump Tower. 1352 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:12,880 You're like, what? 1353 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:14,200 You know? - Oh my God. 1354 00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,120 - It's that part of it is scary. 1355 00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:19,760 - And then invasive and, yeah. 1356 00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,680 - All right. 1357 00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:25,720 Last section of the interview and happy release day 1358 00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:26,720 to you, by the way. 1359 00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:27,560 - Thanks. 1360 00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:28,400 - Yeah. 1361 00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:31,440 Musical guilty pleasures, go. 1362 00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:36,120 - Wait, I'm rolling through everybody that I listened to. 1363 00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:37,560 I don't know if I... 1364 00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:42,120 I hate calling something a guilty pleasure 1365 00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:43,560 because I feel like that means deep down, 1366 00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:44,880 I actually think it's bad. 1367 00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:45,800 - No, no, no, no. 1368 00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,440 All right, so let me, all right, so let me rephrase it. 1369 00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:51,320 Give me a couple of albums, a couple of bands 1370 00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:55,440 that you absolutely adore that are completely outside 1371 00:58:55,440 --> 00:59:00,440 of the genre that everybody knows Emily Deranged 1372 00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:02,440 or Emily Rhonda in. 1373 00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:06,800 - Okay, I love Gunpowder and Led by Miranda Lambert. 1374 00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:07,640 - Okay. 1375 00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:10,040 - That song is a banner and a half. 1376 00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:11,120 - Okay, good. 1377 00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:12,480 - It's so country. 1378 00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:16,640 I feel like that would kind of be surprising to people 1379 00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:18,560 or when I listen to... 1380 00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,520 - I think sidebar, I think you have a similar vocal tone 1381 00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:22,800 to Miranda, continue. 1382 00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:23,960 - Oh, that's interesting. 1383 00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:29,680 Um, I don't know, I really like espresso right now 1384 00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:30,840 by Sabrina Carpenter. 1385 00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:33,160 I feel like anytime I'd like listen to something 1386 00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:35,560 like really, really pop, I don't feel like it's surprising 1387 00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:37,040 because I'm a writer. 1388 00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:41,200 And like pop is, you know, kind of... 1389 00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:45,840 The, I don't know how I'm trying to say this, 1390 00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:50,840 but it's like, when you decide to be a writer, 1391 00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:55,160 usually pop is at the forefront of all of that. 1392 00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:56,480 - Yeah. 1393 00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:57,960 - Pop has... 1394 00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:02,040 It's a very valid format. 1395 01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:05,000 - Yes, and it's usually... 1396 01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,040 I feel like between pop and country historically, 1397 01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,360 it's fueled by the writers and the producers 1398 01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:12,640 and not as much the artists. 1399 01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:14,760 - Right, okay, give me one more, 1400 01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:17,200 you gave Miranda Lambert a espresso, 1401 01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:20,120 give me one more completely outside of the genre. 1402 01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:21,640 - Completely outside. 1403 01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:24,480 - Oh my God. 1404 01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:26,480 Again, I don't think this is shocking, 1405 01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:29,000 but that's just 'cause I mean, I know myself, 1406 01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:30,640 but like I also really love hip-hop. 1407 01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:32,440 I love Kendrick Lamar, I love Mac Miller, 1408 01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:34,240 I think I listen to them both every day. 1409 01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:35,480 - Oh, all right. 1410 01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,240 - Yeah, like every single day. 1411 01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:38,080 (laughs) 1412 01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:38,920 They're playing. 1413 01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:40,600 - Okay, next question. 1414 01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:45,120 If you had to choose between Frank Sinatra and Nat King Cole. 1415 01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:50,160 - So this is what I should have said, 1416 01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:52,200 'cause this is even more shocking. 1417 01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:57,200 I am very into modern day mastering, 1418 01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:01,760 and I love modern day mastering so much 1419 01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:03,840 that I have a hard time listening to things 1420 01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:06,280 that have come out since before 1985, 1421 01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:08,240 because I can't stand how they're mastered. 1422 01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:11,080 So I don't even know, I can't give you a single song 1423 01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,520 of Frank Sinatra or Nat King Cole. 1424 01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:18,440 So I'm gonna pick. - Okay, you sidestepped that one, 1425 01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:20,560 'cause there's really only one correct answer 1426 01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,000 and the correct answer is Nat King Cole. 1427 01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:24,320 - I'll believe you. 1428 01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:25,600 (laughs) 1429 01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:28,600 - All right, give us a funny or horrifying gig experience. 1430 01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:43,280 - Well, there was one time when I was in my pop punk band 1431 01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:46,360 and it was me and a bunch of dudes. 1432 01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:47,480 I was the only girl. 1433 01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:52,480 We went in to load in and the door person 1434 01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:58,520 was also female and she assumed that I was a groupie. 1435 01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:04,280 I don't remember what she said to me, 1436 01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:07,680 but she was checking all of our IDs, 1437 01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:10,120 like checking the band's IDs to make sure 1438 01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:11,360 that we were like whatever, 1439 01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:13,880 like to sign you in, I guess, 1440 01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:17,000 and she didn't think I belonged there. 1441 01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:20,640 So that was infuriating because if a man, 1442 01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,120 I would have been just as upset if a man did it, 1443 01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:25,720 but it sucks more when it's another woman. 1444 01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:27,960 And you're like, you should know how this feels. 1445 01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:28,800 - Yeah. 1446 01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:32,080 - To just have someone assume that this isn't your role. 1447 01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:35,560 Like you could have even thought I was a fucking tambourine player, 1448 01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:38,280 but you just thought I was like, was a girlfriend. 1449 01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:40,000 - You're Janine from Spinal Tap? 1450 01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:40,840 - Yeah, yeah. 1451 01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:43,440 (laughs) 1452 01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:47,920 - Puppet show Spinal Tap first and Puppet Show last. 1453 01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:50,040 (laughs) 1454 01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:55,040 - Yeah, and then there was the show you were at actually 1455 01:02:55,040 --> 01:03:00,040 where I broke my backing tracks halfway through the set. 1456 01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,680 I fucked them up because I started doing this thing, 1457 01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:05,400 'cause usually I play with a drummer and I had backing tracks. 1458 01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:06,720 And I started doing this thing 1459 01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:08,160 that I called the Taylor Swift moment 1460 01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:09,760 where I will play once on acoustic, 1461 01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:11,720 like I'll pause the whole set, 1462 01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:13,680 play my song, resume it. 1463 01:03:13,680 --> 01:03:18,080 And when I did that, I went back and I pressed the wrong fucking button 1464 01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,440 and I just ruined the whole thing and I couldn't figure it out. 1465 01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:22,280 So then I just did the rest of the show acoustic 1466 01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:23,960 because thankfully I write my songs 1467 01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:26,280 and I know how to properly them. 1468 01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:27,760 - But it worked. 1469 01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:28,760 It worked. 1470 01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:30,560 - Thank you for saying, I still had fun, 1471 01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:33,440 and I wasn't actually embarrassed, 1472 01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:35,600 but it was really funny to me, to be like, 1473 01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:38,520 wow, I actually just did that. 1474 01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:40,200 - That's okay, everybody goes through that. 1475 01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:42,160 And the crowd was supportive and yes, 1476 01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:45,520 thankfully you are talented enough as a writer 1477 01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:48,280 to be able to pull it off, right? 1478 01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:50,800 - It would have been worse if I... 1479 01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:51,640 - Yeah. 1480 01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:52,880 - It could have been worse. 1481 01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:54,720 - The joys of Ableton. 1482 01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:56,360 - The joys of Ableton. 1483 01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:57,200 - Yeah. 1484 01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:00,520 - All right, last question, favorite national moment so far. 1485 01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,120 - Oh man. 1486 01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:08,120 I mean, this was a lot of moments, but I think it was... 1487 01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:10,960 Actually, no, I was just thinking about this today. 1488 01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:13,640 So Nick Wheeler, who I had already mentioned, 1489 01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:17,400 he doesn't know this 'cause I haven't told him yet. 1490 01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:19,080 So if he listens to this, he'll find out. 1491 01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,680 But I had the biggest crush on him when I was 12. 1492 01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:24,000 (laughs) 1493 01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:28,680 He, I was the biggest fucking All American Rejects fan, 1494 01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:30,920 and it was him that I loved. 1495 01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:32,160 I loved him. 1496 01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,640 Yeah, yeah, I wasn't, I mean, lead singer, fine, cool, whatever, 1497 01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:38,040 but he was the one that I was obsessed with. 1498 01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:43,120 So we've been working together since I've lived here, 1499 01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:45,560 which is like that in itself is a crazy, 1500 01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:46,880 full circle thing. 1501 01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:47,800 - Oh my God. 1502 01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:49,320 - Yeah, it's wild. 1503 01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:53,520 And I've like really kept my cool gym about it. 1504 01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:57,120 But over the summer, they went on a reunion tour 1505 01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:02,120 and I got to go and I brought my best friend with me 1506 01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:04,280 who was also a big fan we were kids 1507 01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:08,200 and it was awesome and really heartwarming and warm and fuzzy 1508 01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:09,400 and I was thinking about today. 1509 01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:11,160 That was so cool that I, you know. 1510 01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:13,200 - That is an awesome, nice film moment. 1511 01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:14,520 - It was an awesome, Nashville moment. 1512 01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:17,720 I went, they had an after party after in a parking lot 1513 01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:19,240 with Daddy's dogs. 1514 01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:20,080 - Oh, stop it. 1515 01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:21,600 Was that here at Municipal? 1516 01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:22,760 - Yes, yeah, it was. 1517 01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:23,760 - We saw that show. 1518 01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:24,880 That was a great show. 1519 01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:26,320 - Oh shit, I didn't know it. 1520 01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:28,200 I was like the month before I met you guys. 1521 01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:29,040 - Yeah, probably. 1522 01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:29,880 - Yeah, yeah. 1523 01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:32,320 So you were there too, that's sick. 1524 01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:34,680 So I also, I went to the after party. 1525 01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:38,280 I was too afraid to talk to any of the other members. 1526 01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:40,400 But I, you know, caught up with him. 1527 01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:42,880 I ate a bed dog and. 1528 01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:44,200 - Daddy's dogs is great. 1529 01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:45,040 - It was great. 1530 01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:46,720 It was just, it was just, it was just, 1531 01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:49,680 shout out to Salty Crown down in Texas 1532 01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:51,160 'cause he knows about Daddy's dogs. 1533 01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:52,760 He was up and watching to the state. 1534 01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:53,760 Yeah, excuse me. 1535 01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:54,760 - I want one right now. 1536 01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:57,280 - Salty Crown is the guy who hosts up beats. 1537 01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:58,120 - Oh, okay, cool. 1538 01:05:58,120 --> 01:05:58,960 - Sorry. 1539 01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:00,040 - Hell yeah. 1540 01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:02,200 - Well, that's a cool Nashville moment. 1541 01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:06,200 That's like, come a long way after five years moment. 1542 01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:08,720 - Yeah, it was, it was pretty cool. 1543 01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:11,240 - So what was that for like, when you, 1544 01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:13,360 how did you team up with him? 1545 01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:15,680 How did you get, was it through Nathan? 1546 01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:17,080 - I slid in his DMs. 1547 01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:19,120 No, I met Nathan years later. 1548 01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:19,960 - Oh really? 1549 01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:20,800 - Yeah, yeah. 1550 01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:22,240 - You met Nick before Nathan? 1551 01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:23,080 - Yep. 1552 01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:26,800 I met Nick in the winter of 2021. 1553 01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:30,640 I was actually at a dropkick Murphy's show. 1554 01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:32,040 - She, what a shock Boston kid. 1555 01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:34,040 - I know, I know, it was so fucking fun. 1556 01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:36,600 - Sit there with your Bruins hat on. 1557 01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:38,520 - Oh yeah, I am wearing a Bruins hat right out. 1558 01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:41,200 I didn't have this hat then, unfortunately. 1559 01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:43,240 I was also drinking then, so had a lot of beers. 1560 01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:44,240 It was very, very fun. 1561 01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:45,560 - Right. 1562 01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:50,240 - But I am a big fan of Cassidy Pope who, 1563 01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:50,960 - Oh yeah. 1564 01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:53,960 - Yeah, I have not met her yet, 1565 01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:57,560 but I've been following her since she was in Heymonday. 1566 01:06:57,560 --> 01:06:58,760 And I knew that she lived here 1567 01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:00,400 and she had just come out with a new song 1568 01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:02,320 and she had tagged Nick it and she was like, 1569 01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:04,960 wrote this song with Nick or like Nick produced it. 1570 01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:07,640 And I was like, oh yeah, I remember being fucking obsessed 1571 01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:11,040 with that guy and I clicked on his profile 1572 01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:12,800 and realized he lived here. 1573 01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:14,400 And I was like, I have nothing to lose. 1574 01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:16,160 I'm just gonna reach out to him. 1575 01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:17,160 - Shoot your shot. 1576 01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:21,480 - And just, I sent him a DM and I was just like, 1577 01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:23,880 I was the biggest fan of you. 1578 01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:25,280 I'm also doing music here. 1579 01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:27,400 I'm like, you know, whatever. 1580 01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:30,000 Can I buy you a coffee and just like pick your brain 1581 01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:31,000 and talk to you? 1582 01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:31,840 - Good for you. 1583 01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:34,680 - I didn't mention anything about my music or whatever. 1584 01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:36,600 I was just like, I just wanna buy you coffee. 1585 01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:38,320 And he said yes. 1586 01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:41,160 And actually he ended up paying for his own coffee. 1587 01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:42,000 - Nice. 1588 01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:46,040 - But it was, yeah, he got back to me 1589 01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:48,000 and we went to some coffee place. 1590 01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:49,760 I think it was retrograde in East 1591 01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:51,880 and he was the nicest fucking person. 1592 01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:53,320 And then we started writing 1593 01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:54,960 and then I wanted to record what we wrote 1594 01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:58,280 and then we recorded it and that's how it happened. 1595 01:07:58,280 --> 01:07:59,720 - That's an awesome story. 1596 01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:00,560 - Yeah. 1597 01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:03,360 - That really highlights how welcoming 1598 01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:05,000 and warm Nashville can be. 1599 01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:06,800 - And also Nick specifically. 1600 01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:07,640 - Yeah. 1601 01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:08,960 - Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1602 01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:10,760 - You know, me for, for bait 'em. 1603 01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:13,440 - Because I don't think you'd get the same response 1604 01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:16,840 from like a top 10 country guy. 1605 01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:19,600 - No, and also I don't think you would get 1606 01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:21,240 that response in LA either. 1607 01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:23,400 I've never, like I've been to LA 1608 01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:25,720 but I've never worked in LA. 1609 01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:27,480 And just the comparisons I hear like, 1610 01:08:27,480 --> 01:08:29,360 I mean, Nashville has a lot of its own bullshit 1611 01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:31,400 but something that I do hear people talk about a lot 1612 01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:36,080 is how open people are to actually meeting each other. 1613 01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:37,600 Like working together. 1614 01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:41,680 It's not as standoffish as I hear LA is 1615 01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:43,640 and if someone's listening to this works in LA 1616 01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:45,360 it needs to correct me, that's totally fine. 1617 01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:47,000 But I find like they won't. 1618 01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:48,160 - I know. - It's true. 1619 01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:50,360 - You know, I had a totally different experience in LA. 1620 01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:53,880 I mean, I was there from 95 to 03 and like you, 1621 01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:57,200 I moved to LA because I had contacts there. 1622 01:08:57,200 --> 01:08:58,320 You have contacts here. 1623 01:08:58,320 --> 01:08:59,160 - Yep. 1624 01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:02,400 - I built up a network based upon those contacts 1625 01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:05,280 and I was very fortunate that those guys 1626 01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:09,560 were hovering around the biggest studios. 1627 01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:10,400 - Yeah. 1628 01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:14,560 - So my experience was different in that regard. 1629 01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:18,800 I do remember it being pretty plastic, pretty fake. 1630 01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:26,040 Whereas I, my experience is in the pop and rock world 1631 01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:29,880 here it's much more organic. 1632 01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:34,880 I think the writers, the country scene here is not as authentic 1633 01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:38,440 as the pop and rock scene is. 1634 01:09:38,440 --> 01:09:42,840 I think the pop and rockers here are more open and welcoming 1635 01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:45,040 because they feel that they have a lot to prove. 1636 01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:46,960 They have to prove their legitimacy 1637 01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:49,200 more so than the country guys do. 1638 01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:51,160 The country artists do. 1639 01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:53,000 - I agree with that. 1640 01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:53,840 - Yeah. 1641 01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:56,400 But anyways, that's just my take on it. 1642 01:09:56,400 --> 01:09:59,840 - Well, Emily, thank you. 1643 01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:00,680 - Jim, thank you. 1644 01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:01,680 - Yeah. 1645 01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:05,680 - And we will close out the 23rd edition 1646 01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:09,600 of the artist hour with hate me. 1647 01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:12,880 Good, love this track. 1648 01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:14,040 - Thank you, so do I. 1649 01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:16,840 - And see you around town. 1650 01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:17,680 - Sounds good. 1651 01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:18,520 See ya. 1652 01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:22,120 (upbeat music) 1653 01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:24,700 (upbeat music) 1654 01:10:24,700 --> 01:10:36,200 ♪ Everyone call this situation ♪ 1655 01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:38,520 ♪ And my soul after mystic ♪ 1656 01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:40,720 ♪ I let you run ♪ 1657 01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:44,600 ♪ Throw me like a house you'd rather keep thinking ♪ 1658 01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:46,920 ♪ I'm blaming myself ♪ 1659 01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:48,960 ♪ If I could look better ♪ 1660 01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:50,120 ♪ With that help ♪ 1661 01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:53,320 ♪ I always wake up just to reach out ♪ 1662 01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:55,280 ♪ Go ahead say it's romantic ♪ 1663 01:10:55,280 --> 01:10:57,960 ♪ Can't I tell? ♪ 1664 01:10:57,960 --> 01:10:59,480 ♪ Do I have an end of the week ♪ 1665 01:10:59,480 --> 01:11:00,960 ♪ Since you called me ♪ 1666 01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:01,960 ♪ I'm drunk enough ♪ 1667 01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:04,240 ♪ I flew the boat over so I can't see ♪ 1668 01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:05,320 ♪ I'm fucked up ♪ 1669 01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:06,960 ♪ Or am I just another one ♪ 1670 01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:10,560 ♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪ 1671 01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:12,320 ♪ Wait till you call me every time ♪ 1672 01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:13,840 ♪ I call this fate ♪ 1673 01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:15,080 ♪ You call me into me ♪ 1674 01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:16,440 ♪ When you're unturned ♪ 1675 01:11:16,440 --> 01:11:18,200 ♪ Please fit up, up, up ♪ 1676 01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:19,880 ♪ Or am I just another one ♪ 1677 01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:23,200 ♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪ 1678 01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:25,780 (upbeat music) 1679 01:11:25,780 --> 01:11:33,160 ♪ Just to me, it'd be easy to see ♪ 1680 01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:36,040 ♪ It feels like I shouldn't know better ♪ 1681 01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:37,720 ♪ So you agree ♪ 1682 01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:39,720 ♪ You're being more than just a tease ♪ 1683 01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:42,040 ♪ When you go start over ♪ 1684 01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:44,520 ♪ Like the last time the hotel ♪ 1685 01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:46,680 ♪ You told me you were sorry ♪ 1686 01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:48,680 ♪ Go to hell ♪ 1687 01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:50,680 ♪ Do I have an end of the week ♪ 1688 01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:52,160 ♪ Since you called me ♪ 1689 01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:53,160 ♪ I'm drunk enough ♪ 1690 01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:55,520 ♪ I flew the boat over so I can't see ♪ 1691 01:11:55,520 --> 01:11:56,520 ♪ I'm fucked up ♪ 1692 01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:58,200 ♪ Or am I just another one ♪ 1693 01:11:58,200 --> 01:12:01,680 ♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪ 1694 01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:03,520 ♪ Wait till you call me every time ♪ 1695 01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:05,040 ♪ I call this fate ♪ 1696 01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:06,280 ♪ You call me into me ♪ 1697 01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:07,520 ♪ When you're unturned ♪ 1698 01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:09,360 ♪ Please fit up, up, up ♪ 1699 01:12:09,360 --> 01:12:10,880 ♪ Or am I just another one ♪ 1700 01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:14,360 ♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪ 1701 01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:19,360 ♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪ 1702 01:12:19,360 --> 01:12:26,360 ♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪ 1703 01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:32,360 ♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪ 1704 01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:37,360 ♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪ 1705 01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:40,360 ♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪ 1706 01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:43,360 ♪ To end the little weeks since you called me ♪ 1707 01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:44,360 ♪ I'm drunk enough ♪ 1708 01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:46,360 ♪ For the boat over so I can't see ♪ 1709 01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:47,360 ♪ I'm fucked up ♪ 1710 01:12:47,360 --> 01:12:49,360 ♪ Or am I just another one ♪ 1711 01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:52,360 ♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪ 1712 01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:54,360 ♪ Wait till you call me every time ♪ 1713 01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:56,360 ♪ I call this fate ♪ 1714 01:12:56,360 --> 01:12:57,360 ♪ You call me into me ♪ 1715 01:12:57,360 --> 01:12:58,360 ♪ When you're unturned ♪ 1716 01:12:58,360 --> 01:13:00,360 ♪ Please fit up, up, up ♪ 1717 01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:02,360 ♪ Or am I just another one ♪ 1718 01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:05,360 ♪ Love in you feels like a hate me ♪ 1719 01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:15,360 [Music] 1720 01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:40,420 [no speech detected]