(upbeat music)
Hey everybody, welcome back.
This is Phantom Power Artist Hour,
episode 12, episode 12.
And I'm really excited to share this conversation
that I had with you guys.
Today I'm talking to Nate, Jonathan.
Nate, you can find his music over on Wave Lake.
He's one of the most prolific artists out there.
He's got a bunch of bands, drawing monsters,
death by lions, monkey robot war, red arrow highway,
and he's also got a host of solar material.
I love his voice, I love his lyrics.
He's probably my favorite artist in the space,
so I was really excited to get him on the show.
And we have a really great conversation
where we talk about all of that as well as value
for value and playing in bands and all that fun stuff
that musicians these days are running into.
So I'm gonna shut up.
We're gonna play one of his solo tracks here called Time,
and then we will bring him on for the show.
You got your wallets ready?
You ready to boost it?
You ready to send Nate some sats?
Let's do it.
Here we go.
Set 'em not lying just saying nothing.
You wouldn't understand anyway.
Well, if we're lying just giving into bluffing,
I guess I only have one thing to say.
♪ These three days gonna be just trying to make me happy ♪
♪ Three days gonna be just trying to make me happy ♪
♪ Just a matter of time before we all go ♪
♪ At my funeral, just say goodbye ♪
♪ Try to look to your future when you walk outside ♪
♪ Leave me in the timeline back where I belong ♪
♪ I had so much fun with all of you ♪
♪ I got more out of life than I expected to ♪
♪ So no need to be sad, I'm just returning to ♪
♪ There's nothing that I came from ♪
♪ Three days gonna be just trying to make me happy ♪
♪ Just a matter of time before we all go ♪
♪ You said I'm not lying just saying nothing ♪
♪ You wouldn't understand anyway ♪
♪ You said I'm not lying just returning to nothing ♪
♪ You'll understand someday ♪
- All right, that is the single time by Nate Johnovan
and Nate is kind enough to join us on the line.
- Well hello, there, Jim.
- What's up, buddy?
How are you?
- I'm doing great.
You know, I'm up here in Michigan,
and it's just now becoming warm,
and we're coming out of this winter funk.
You can see it on people's faces out there.
It's incredible, people start smiling a little bit more.
Have you ever lived somewhere where you get
bitter cold for a few months?
- Not Michigan cold.
I grew up in Denver.
- Okay.
- And I mean, it's snow's, I think it's cold,
but it's also like in Denver,
it's 300 days a sunshine a year.
So literally it could snow,
Saturday night, seven inches, and then Sunday afternoon,
it's 60 degrees and it's all cold.
- Gorgeous, yeah.
- Yeah.
- No, it kind of feels like we've been living in a cave
for about three months,
and everybody's just kind of coming out
and ever looking at each other weird,
but yeah, just overall good vibes going on right now
up here in Michigan.
- Nice trees are budding or starting to,
well, I think--
- Yeah, they're thinking about it.
- Yeah, they're not sure.
It could change on a dime up here.
- Yeah, the flowers are starting to pop out down here
in Nashville, but then the deer come in and eat them all.
So it's nice.
- Yeah, whatever.
- I mean, they gotta eat.
- That's true.
They do.
I'm really excited to talk to you.
I mean, I've been in this space now for--
- Well, thank you.
I've been in this space now for about eight months,
and I've listened to hundreds and hundreds of artists
and bands.
I gotta tell you, dude, like, you know that,
I mean, for the sake of disclosure,
of course my daughter has music in this space.
But I gotta tell you, dude, you're probably my favorite artist
in this space.
I'm just absolutely blown away.
But--
- That means so much to me.
I really appreciate that.
I just keep making and making and making.
Like I tell my kids, I say it all the time,
they don't create much, but I say ABC, always be creating.
And I don't know, it was about 10 years ago or so.
I had this realization that I'm not gonna be here forever
and I got all these ideas in my head
and I better get them out.
'Cause I don't wanna be on my deathbed going,
oh, I wish I would have done more.
And so that just started this avalanche of music.
And I never really had the intention to put it out
or really do anything with it.
But then the streaming services came along
and it became a little bit more easy.
And now with this wave lake and all of this,
it seems just like a more,
it's exciting to me.
It's, with Spotify and those,
you are definitely a drop in an ocean.
It's really hard for people to find you.
You're really just circulating around family and friends
and maybe some random person in Belgium
will get fed it through an algorithm or something.
- How in the hell do you find the time
to put all this out?
'Cause let's go over the names of the projects that you have.
Like we opened with time, which is a solo track from you.
But you've also got a band called Drawing Monsters.
You've got a band called Red Arrow Highway.
You've got a band called Death by Lions.
You've got a band called Monkey Robot War,
which is probably the greatest name in the value verse.
- Thank you.
We've had issues with that one.
We had one band that wouldn't let us on the bill
because they thought that name was too odd.
What the hell?
- I know, but their name was something terrible.
I can't remember.
There was some national act
and I guess I won't call them out on here.
But yeah, that band is a syncyc stink
and kind of reformed into,
or some of the members reformed into Red Arrow Highway.
So I really have like three projects going now.
Drawing Monsters kind of went away.
COVID was, COVID was rough on music for a while there.
- Yeah.
- And on bands.
So now I have Red Arrow Highway.
We've got Death by Lions and then if I'm writing a song
and it doesn't seem to fit in either one of those,
I will try and make it myself.
That's a little bit more time consuming.
'Cause I love the process that we have right now
with both bands.
With Red Arrow Highway, my buddy Justin sits at his house
and he composes all the music
and sends me over a logic file.
We do everything in logic on Apple.
And so I get it, I can open it up
and then I just start adding vocals over the top of it.
Sometimes it can be three hours and we're done
and we're rolling onto the next one and...
- That's my line.
- Yeah, it's crazy.
Just its stream line so much.
And then Death by Lions is the same way.
My buddy Brian and Wes write all the music
and then they send me over a file
and I write over the top of it
and then we have band practice once a week.
And that's just fun, you know?
- Yeah. - We could gather
and start practicing the songs that we just wrote.
So it's different when I was in high school,
we were getting a garage and bang it out for eight hours
and maybe come out with one minute of usable material.
- Yeah.
- No, it's just, yeah, it's so much easier.
Now that everything's cheaper and...
I don't know, or maybe we're just getting older
so we're able to get nicer mics and interfaces
and all that stuff.
- Yeah, day jobs help with that.
Well, let's go back to the beginning
of your musical career because definitely,
playing in high school bands is invaluable.
And I have...
You're doing something with respect
to writing lyrics and writing melodies over the music
in a non-traditional way.
But take us back to the beginning,
where did you start playing music?
How did you get into it?
- Oh, those are two different questions, I think.
I will tell you the first concert I ever saw.
It was a game changer for me.
I mean, I didn't know what I was gonna be
when I got older, but I went and saw smashing pumpkins
on the Simeez Dream tour.
And it was like the first time I went to something like that
with just friends, you know?
- Yeah, and I lose my group
and I'm standing in the middle of this huge crowd.
And I don't remember the opening act at all,
but I do remember the lights went out in the arena.
They had us.
This is how I remember it.
This might not have even happened.
But a spotlight comes down onto the drums
and Billy Corgan, they must have had a trampoline
or something behind the drums.
He comes flying over the drums,
hits the ground and goes, (humming)
and I lost it, it was like my brain melted,
and I was done, I just knew that that's exactly
what I wanted to do in any capacity
for the rest of my life.
So that sparked music, and then my dad always played,
and he wrote songs for church and stuff,
and he wound up getting a 4 track,
one of those old Fostek 4 tracks,
and he put the cassette tape in,
and he could not figure out how to use it.
So it just kinda sat there, (laughs)
and I asked him one day if I could use it,
and he's like, "Yeah, I get this thing away from me,
it's driving me nuts."
And so I had that in my room,
and at that point I couldn't even really play any instruments,
but we just kinda had 'em laying around the house,
so I would part around with 'em,
and wound up with a drum machine at one point,
and I figured out if you put that drum machine track
into the 4 track and flipped over the tape,
it would make this really cool,
like industrial backwards.
- Look at you.
- Yeah, you know, and so I didn't really have to know
how to make music, to make music like that.
- It's kinda like that.
- It's kinda like the drum loop for "Staying Alive,"
like if you know the story behind that.
- No, did they do that?
- That drum loop for "Staying Alive,"
you can go on YouTube and look it up.
Like they were bouncing tape back and forth around the room.
Like they took a two-bar phrase,
they took a two-bar phrase, and then looped it,
via tape machines.
This is pre-sample, pre-logic,
and it's stunning what they did.
And in many respects, and the Beastie Boys did it too,
Adam, the guy--
- That would never remember that.
- Yeah, it's the exact same theory.
So you're a--
- So you sir are a tinkerer, you.
- Oh, you got no idea.
- Yeah, if I think I can do it myself,
I will do it every time.
Which at some point, this whole studio I'm in right now,
will probably burn down,
'cause I did the electrical myself.
I'm no clue what I'm doing.
But it's not a contractor, man.
I'm just--
- Oh, if a contractor came in here,
they would ask me to leave.
Yeah, so I started with that four track,
and I just-- I loved it, and got myself a bass guitar
after a while, and learned that, as well as I could,
and then I figured I needed a couple more strings,
so I got a little electric too.
And I started playing in bands,
and I just--
I fell in love with the recording process, though.
There's something just magical about getting something
out of your mind,
and onto something that you can share with other people
that you don't have to recreate every time.
And I still--
we play shows, but I get very anxious about them.
So recordings like the perfect way to--
you can check it before it goes out.
You know what I mean?
And there's no technical difficulties,
or two drunk people spilling on your equipment,
or whatever else happens that is so.
- I mean, you're such a proficient rider,
and your performance on tape is solid.
It's intriguing.
Why are you anxious about doing gigs?
- Maybe anxious isn't the right word I apologize, but--
- No, it's absolutely the right word,
and I think it all stems from,
I'm worried that I'm gonna forget lyrics.
There's so many bounce around up there
that I will forget every once in a while,
and then there's-- I don't know your history.
Have you played live shows?
And yes, okay, that fades to me.
- I got four years on the road, dude.
- Oh, yeah.
- I got more gigs than I can remember,
and I've been so lucky.
Like I've played like the largest crowd I played
in front of was probably--
it was about 400,000 that I could see.
- Whoa.
- But then, and I've done all types of gigs.
I've done the church gigs, I've done the public gigs,
I've done, the only thing I love to joke,
the only gig I haven't done,
like I haven't done a bar mitzvah at a gas station.
Like, that's the only gig I haven't done.
- You never combined those two, yeah.
But I'm sure it's coming, right?
Maybe not, I'm trying to see, but so, you know.
- Yeah, now that you put it out there.
- Yeah, but yeah, I know it's all just anxiety about
getting up there and blanking out.
I've definitely done that before,
and there's nothing like just standing there
and the crowds looking at you and you're looking at them,
and I'm like, I'm just begging them with my eyes
to just tell me what's next.
- Yeah, you're gonna be with somebody, help me.
- Yeah.
- But recently it's gotten a lot better,
and I figured out that if I just practice,
andcessantly, and I'll even take all the tracks,
and without vocals and make playlists for myself,
and listen to them in the car, and when I'm on the lawn,
and doing electrical work, or whatever,
I just constantly going over it,
and then when I get on stage, if that thought comes up,
hey, you're not gonna remember what's coming up next,
it always, it pops back in there,
right when I need it to, usually.
But yeah, I still nerve-wracking.
- Well, yeah, and I get it, I mean, for some people it is,
I know Steve Hackett, who was one of the guitar players
for Genesis, one of the reasons why he quit the band,
and left the band is 'cause of that anxiety.
- Yeah, and I can't even imagine shows like that.
And we're talking, I'm playing for like two or three people,
somebody.
- Yeah, you've brought up your lyrics twice now,
once in a time, the completed music is sent to you,
and you put the lyrics on top,
or then you also referenced your concern about
forgetting them on stage.
I have to tell you what draws me in to your music,
the reason why I am such a fan of what you do is twofold.
Number one, your voice stands out.
Like, I can tell right away, it's you.
And by the way, as a funny little sidebar,
I was having a great chat about music with Michael Reeve
from Waveling.
And Mike and I were sitting there going through everybody
on Waveling, and we're like, oh yeah, this guy's great,
this guy's great.
And then, and I remember telling Michael,
I'm like, yeah, and have you heard of this band
and as a joke, I'm like, yeah, it's probably a Nate
Johnathan project, like that dude's got a lot of shit up here,
right?
And sure enough, it was you.
- Oh, nice.
- You know, what's up?
- Yeah.
- But it's slowly trying to take it over.
I've got a pretty extensive back catalog that's been fun to release.
- I don't know where the hell you find the time,
but your lyrics blow me away.
Like as you curse out the taxi cab that passed us
across the universe and other galaxy collapses.
- Yeah, that's fun.
- What the hell, dude?
(laughing)
- That's fun.
- If Wind is just air filling up the vacuum.
- Yeah, that, I like her more than,
I like hear more than her from leaving Chicago.
- Yeah.
Yeah, I don't.
- I question, you know, I don't know where they come from.
- Well, yeah, that's my question.
It's like, what is your legal inspiration?
Like, what books do you read?
Like, where are you getting this stuff, dude?
- I don't know.
I do pay attention when I'm watching,
if we're watching a movie or TV or something
and I hear somebody say a line that I find interesting,
I will put that in my phone.
But for example, the Wind is just air filling up a vacuum.
I was sitting in a hammock one day,
just kind of staring up and I tried to figure out,
or I had this thought,
you don't know where Wind comes from.
You don't know what, why it happens?
And then I tried to think it through and I figured out,
oh, it's just, you know, heat makes the air rise
and that leaves the vacuum and the wind is rushing
into fill that void.
And yeah, I don't know.
I thought it was a cool thought
and I don't think people think about it very often.
So I thought I'd throw that into a song.
- It's like a Cheech and Chong thought.
I mean, there's a part of,
the smart ass in me who's been sober for over a year
is there's a huge part of me that's like,
okay, are there recreational pharmaceuticals involved?
- Let's see what.
- I certainly have in my life,
but not recently.
It became a lot less interesting once they legalized things
up here in Michigan.
- Yeah, that's like, it's like,
it's just not as fun anymore.
- That's fun anymore.
I don't feel like I'm a badass anymore.
- That's great.
But I really appreciate you,
the compliments on the lyrics.
That's, I compare myself to my favorite artist out there,
is Connor Obers,
and I'm not sure if you're familiar with his work,
but he does, he's in Bright Eyes and
a punk band called Desperado Cedos and then does a bunch of.
- Yeah, I've heard of Bright Eyes, yeah.
- Yep, so when I compare myself to that level,
I feel like I'm still playing catch up.
And I just feel like,
but then I listen to what's on the radio with these days.
I'm like, okay, yes, I'm doing pretty good.
- Yeah, well, I mean, pop, you know, pop is different.
I mean, it's like,
Waffi, it's not meant to be lyrically deep.
I mean, you know, you, you know,
for it could be though.
- It could, well, and some of them are,
but for the most part, they're not.
It's just fluff, right?
And that's okay, it's meant to bring a smile on your face.
That's, you know, it's got its place.
Well, let me ask you about one of your projects,
drawing monsters.
I love the interplay with your voice
and your partner in that band who I'm assuming is Cole?
- Yep, Cole Hanson.
Good for you. - It's a friend, okay.
- Yep.
- On the professor, that track, like your tone
and her tone, they worked so well together.
- Yeah, yeah, to tell us.
- I really have to thank her for,
that was kind of the first project out of,
I had a, I gotta go, I gotta history it up a little bit.
I went, I was in this rap core band where I was just playing guitar.
And before that, I would sing sometimes,
but around puberty age, my voice just sucked, you know,
like, I mean, I couldn't hit a note to save my life,
but I kept writing songs and then,
I was coming out of this break up
and I'm living in this crap hole apartment
and I just started messing around with Garage Band.
I got a MacBook and it came with it
and it's like, oh, maybe I can start making music again.
And so I wrote a few songs and went to an open mic
and met Cole there.
And I think she saw something in the lyrics or something.
And we decided to get together
and maybe try and write some music together.
And so got her number and it was a couple of weeks later,
I called her and she said, yeah,
I wish she'd get together and I gave her my address
and she's like, are you kidding me?
And as I know, and she goes, how do you know where I live?
And I said, I don't know where you live.
And she goes, look out your window
and I look out my window and like, right down the street
a few doors down.
She was sitting there light on enough.
I know, Grand Rapids is a pretty big city
for that kind of coincidence.
So we started playing music and my other buddy, Dustin,
came along and we had ourselves a band
and next thing you know, we were putting songs together
and she really pulled me out of my shell, singing wise.
Before that, I would be very quiet
'cause I wasn't sure of my vocals or what was gonna happen
and she kinda, she just showed me I could do it
and she's so good, vocally.
She's got, I told her she needs to put her stuff up
on Wave Lake too.
So you'll probably see that pop up here soon
and you can hear her voice is just incredible.
So yeah, she helped me a lot and yeah, I love that
the being able to write songs for two people
going back and forth and making it a conversation,
that's so fun to be able to write like that.
Yeah, 'cause you can have a couple of fighting
where you get to do both sides.
- Oh yeah.
- It's so fun.
Yeah, that was a really fun project
and that just kinda dissolved in its place
came a Mookie Robot War and on and on we go.
Just kinda been band after band.
- Wow, howdy.
- Are you able to do this full time or do you have a day job?
- Oh God no.
I think if I did it full time,
it would feel like a job and then I wouldn't do it at all
anymore.
- That's a good point.
- Yeah, it happened to me with I do illustrations too.
And I just always drawn pictures my whole life
and then one day I was like, you know,
I should get into art show and I framed a bunch of stuff,
made a bunch of prints, got a little tent
and went out and did some art shows
and it was fun at first.
I made some money and then there was one day
the lady came up and she's like, I don't know,
that's pretty expensive and I caught myself
selling my art, you know, I was trying to talk her into it.
And you know, when she walked away, I just felt,
I felt dirty and I packed up all my crap
and I haven't done that ever since that was years ago.
So I worry that as soon as I start messing with commerce
and art, it becomes a lot less fun and you lose the joy
in it which you hope that that comes through the music.
Yeah, so I don't want to do that.
I want to keep it as a hobby.
Even this, if I ever figure out how to get money
out of Wave Lake, which I talked to Michael about the other day,
if I ever figure it out, I'm just gonna,
I'm gonna spend it all on one big party
and just have a bunch of friends over
and play some music here at my house and yeah,
it'll just be great.
I see music as if I get anything back from it,
it's bonus, you know, it's a bonus
'cause I enjoy doing it so much that.
Yeah, I don't wanna.
Yeah, I think, I mean, God, you just touched on a couple
of topics there that we could spend three hours on.
I think that people are attracted to bands
when they hear something new and the angst
and the energy that that band has when they are struggling,
when they are not making anything,
when they will do anything they can to play
in front of 50 people in Grand Rapids.
Yep.
And that'd be beautiful.
Yeah, and but then something happens
to the band when they start making money.
Yep.
Most bands lose their edge.
Most bands do not continue to push themselves
and to try new things and to experiment new things.
There's very few bands, I think,
that have been able to pull it off and continue to,
you know, whether we like their music or not,
but continue to push the boundaries of their artistry.
You know, I think of, like, I think fish does that very well.
I think, you know, you too is, you know,
some of their later records are good, some of them are not.
Yeah, but, you know, but they're pushing, you know?
They're not just rehashing the same thing over and over too.
I feel like that's a problem when somebody has a little success.
They're like, oh, that worked.
I'm gonna keep, I'm gonna beat that horse to death.
Yeah.
I don't wanna do that either.
Yeah, you know, and like, you know,
sting is one of my favorite artists and I remember like he,
he put out like, and to me, like my favorite records
of his are soul cages, 10 Summoners Tales and Mercury Falling.
And I was excited within the last couple of years
that he had put out a new quote unquote rock record
and I listened to it and I'm like, you know,
I just did, he wouldn't start.
Yeah, I mean, because to me, like he's, you know,
he's such a music nerd, a beautiful music nerd, you know?
Yeah.
And that I was hoping that he would be pushing some boundaries
on that and I was a little disappointed in that.
But I think that, you know, artists, you know,
I think the money and the success gets in the way
and they lose their edge, you know?
And with my bands now, we're pretty,
we're established adults at this point, you know?
I'm a part owner of a civil engineering company now.
So I mean, money is still an issue,
but it's not, it's not like we're having a hard time buying food,
you know?
And pretty much everybody in all my bands is pretty established.
So we get to take that out out of the equation,
which is nice.
So if we play a show and get a few hundred bucks, it's like,
this is awesome.
Yeah.
Usually they're just paying the bar tap.
Yeah, red meat tonight.
It's red meat and cigars, boys.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
So yeah, it's nice to have that out of the equation a little bit.
But you meant, yeah, you let me ask you about selling your art,
because one of the artists that I played with when
I lived in Seattle's great singer, songwriter,
by the name of Carrie Ockery.
And there was a Facebook post that she was involved in the other day.
And a lot of my buddies back in Seattle were talking about how
they hate to sell their art.
They feel dirty about selling their art.
Yeah, there's a lot of them.
Yeah, you know, but you know, but you're out there, you know,
you're putting value out into the universe, you know,
either with your illustrations or with your songs.
And, you know, and you're asking for value in return.
Yeah, I mean, I mean, is the tricky part is the, is the ask, you know,
and I think that, you know, it would like, I wonder how that value
for value model would work.
You know, with your drawings.
Maybe an NFT type situation, although I'm not even really sure what that is.
No, no, no, I mean, like what if you set up a tent with all of your illustrations
and all the stuff that you had framed and ready to go and just said,
hey, you know, like this is what I think it's worth, but.
Oh, what do you mean?
You know, like, you know, because it's value to other, other areas.
Because it's the same thing on, on Wavelake, you know, or on,
or if somebody's listened to you on Fountain or Pobbers or anything like that,
like they can, like some people, like, like to me, leaving Chicago, I'm like,
I'm like, I love this song.
I'm going to tip the dude 10 bucks, right?
Whereas somebody else would be like, no, you know, I'll give him 10 sats, 20 sats, right?
Right. And that does add up.
I guess I've always been under the, the mind frame that someday I'll write a song
that'll get, you know, on a, on a movie or, or something, there'll be a big payday.
You know, and it'll make all this time and effort worth it without any effort.
I'm like, you know, but maybe I'm looking at it all wrong and, um,
it may be a little bit so long the way is what, is what will add up to a lot.
I know.
Um, I don't know.
I guess I don't know.
I think we're, I mean, we as a society were, we're so stuck on
instant gratification and, and, you know, you can, you can buy a video game and you can figure
it out in 20 minutes, you know, right?
Yeah.
You know, you can buy a writing lawnmower, read the instructions and within an hour, you're
up and running.
Yeah.
Or a new app on the phone or whatever it is.
And I think that we have forgotten the, the, the importance of the long play, the importance
of, of, you know, I think that like if you, if you have read any of the Bitcoin books,
you know, they call it low time frequency, right?
So yeah.
Yeah.
I will, I had to, I had a point to mention this.
Um, I, I've been trying to figure out the Bitcoin space and I'm a pretty tech savvy dude.
Um, and I have, I think the problem, the main problem with this lightning wallet and, uh, the
Bitcoin whole thing around it is it's really hard to figure it out.
I, I've got a moon pay now.
I'm on cracking.
I gave money to somebody and, uh, then tried to get it back out and they were like, you don't
have enough to take it back out.
So I, I don't know how it all works.
I just, and this is what I've, I sent to Michael because he reached out, um, uh, like last
week.
I said, it would be really helpful to have, I don't know, a video or, or, um, a, a, a,
or something that breaks it down with links and where you can, uh, where it makes sense.
Cause I, right now it doesn't make sense to me yet how it works.
Um, I'm not sure how to, I guess I do, I did figure out how to give other people stats.
Um, but I don't, it just seems, uh, counterintuitive.
Yeah.
And you got to be a, uh, IT guy to figure it out is what it seems like to me.
Yeah, it, it can be, it, it can be right now.
I mean, like for the, for the people that I've onboarded, you know, I mean, um, you know, I,
I, I, I get them an Alby wallet, um, or even, you know, I, I tell them like if you're looking
for a lightning address, like just go open, open, uh, an account on fountain.
Yeah.
You know, do it, right?
Yeah.
Cause you can bounce stuff over there, you know.
Um, um, and, and I tell people that, you know, look like it's still really, really
early and it will get easier, you know, um, my wife and I met at a.com, um, and so a lot of
this technology, a lot of the stuff that we are experiencing firsthand 25 years later,
we're like, Oh, this reminds me of like, when that escape came out, this reminds me of
when AOL came up.
This reminds me of people freaking out over dial up versus broadband, right?
Like, I mean, you know, you, you, it's, we have to remind ourselves that this is still
very, very early, very, very new.
And it just takes it, you know, and I, I do think it will be the future.
Um, there's, there's so many problems with, um, letting it algorithm like when you're in
Spotify, letting the algorithm pick what you're going to listen to next, I've, I loved it
at first.
I thought, man, this is great.
Um, but now every, every song that it suggests sounds so much like the one before it that
you just get bored with it and you lose that, I don't know, uh, what I like about Wave Lake
is that it'll go from, you know, country to death metal to rap to, it's all over the place.
And that's what my mind wants.
I, I, I like that.
I want it to be, I want to be surprised when I'm listening to stuff.
Yeah.
Those algorithms are not doing it.
No, I mean, just, you know, Spotify, uh, you know, works like, like, if I'm in the mood
for opera, you know, it'll, it'll keep me in that mood.
It won't, you know, it won't go from, it won't go from, from poverty to Sepultera, you
know, you know, and maybe that's what you want, you know, maybe the top tour to check Baker
to patty Griffin.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, that's what my mind's doing anyway.
Yeah.
Um, that's the, uh, yeah, I think there's a, uh, uh, right when I heard about it, I was
like, oh, that's a great idea.
And I can't wait to hear about it.
Um, my, uh, a friend from high school had, his friends with Michael.
Oh, okay.
And, yeah, and he, um, he had posted something on Facebook or somewhere and I was like, oh,
another place to put up music and I, I didn't really understand it at first.
And, uh, so I threw up an album and then kind of started looking into it and then you guys
started making podcasts about it, which is very helpful, um, just, um, and then I did,
I didn't like, didn't look at it for a few weeks and went back on and I have, my sats were
growing and I'm a, uh, data cruncher anyway.
So, um, I like looking at all the numbers and seeing, you know, if certain songs are doing
better than other ones, um, it's, uh, it's dangerous.
I just started doing that because then you're like, well, why isn't this one, you know, uh,
you can really over, you can get, I even wrote a song called analysis, paralysis about that.
Um, so yeah, I love, I love being able to dig into the data of it and I started doing that
and I was like, oh, people are actually listening.
Um, it wasn't so much about the sats, but there's, you know, there's a few thousand plays
on there and that, that's better than Spotify or any of those because, and I think it's because
it's a, uh, smaller pool now, um, growing every day.
Yeah.
And not just a wavelength on, you know, on, on Ellen Beach and in a lot of the other places
that people are self-hosting, you know, you know, you know, exciting.
Uh, just a fun new way to get that music out there and I love that people can give
feedback by tipping.
Yeah.
Yeah, I, I think it's no more a part of it.
I think it's dangerous to, um, I mean, I, I talked about this yesterday on a, on a, on a
pleb chain radio, um, you know, the, the, the ugly truth is that a song's popularity is,
is going to be measured in sats.
Yeah.
That's the ugly truth, you know, um, you can kind of tell, and, and I was talking about,
um, that, you know, um, in, in, in many ways, what, what is, you know, like, it, if you go
on Spotify, um, or iTunes or Deezer or SoundCloud, the majority, in my opinion, the majority
of what you, uh, of what you hear is not quality.
Um, and that's because there's a low barrier to entry into the industry.
Um, so it, you know, fortunately or unfortunately, uh, the sats are going to help determine,
you know, what, what people like the, the most, you know, I mean, if, if the song is poorly recorded,
if, if the vocals are awful, if, if the production is awful, it's probably not going to get
anything.
Right.
And it's, um, yeah, but as a songwriter, it's dangerous to sit there and go, oh, well, how come
song B didn't get as much as song A, like song B is my favorite.
I'm not good enough.
Well, how come nobody, right?
The beauty of song B?
Yeah.
You really have to be careful with that.
And just keep making whatever, whatever you want.
That makes it hard.
You know, um, and that's what I, I do love the ability to be able to do that.
My, uh, Red Arrow Highway is very, uh, Springsteen rock and roll.
Uh, that's my lion says a little bit more of an edge to it.
And then my solo stuff, I get to make whatever I want.
Um, I would love to figure out how to make dubstep, but it's really hard.
I don't know how to do it, but I love listening to it.
So I would love to someday figure that out.
Um, but I love the freedom of being able to do that and to have a place to put it out.
Um, that's accepting of genre jumping, jumping like that.
Is it great?
Yeah.
Well, tell, tell me about some of the gigs you're doing around.
I mean, you, you guys all have day jobs and you're all there.
Yeah.
Time is, time is tough.
Uh, time management is, is what possibly the hardest part of, uh, being in this active
musically.
Um, we got my day job on their guy worked.
Last week was rare, but I put in like over 50 hours and then, um, we got band practice twice
a week for, um, or one day for each band.
And then, um, I, I slip out to the studio every chance I get, but we also have, um,
uh, two, I'm a stepdad to two 16 year old, uh, twins.
And yeah, they're just, uh, they're constantly go, go, go.
They want to be with their friends and we're driving them all around and, um, yeah, just
it's so much to do it every week.
Yeah.
Just collapse into bed.
Um, but it feels good.
You know, it feels like I accomplished something during the day.
Um, and we, yeah, it's hard to booking shows for two bands.
They, they collide a lot when it comes to that.
Um, and yeah, both bands thinks they should take precedence over the other one.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, we just, we got a few shows booked coming up in the summer.
I'm really hoping to get, I'd love to get on some festivals or something like that.
Um, it's just hard, um, especially Grand Rapids.
We, we lost a lot of live music venues after COVID and, but now it's just these bigger venues
where it's hard to get in there and you got a lot of bands fighting for very few spots,
you know?
Mm-hmm.
I'm hoping that turns around and they open some new, smaller venues would be great.
It might be, might be, might be time for some house shows.
Mm-hmm.
You know, so summer is coming.
Yeah, you got this, uh, studio show in the backyard.
Oh, no, dude, do show in the backyard.
Yeah.
You know, and got invited.
You got to invite all your neighbors.
That's the trick.
Oh, there you go.
Then they can't be mad because they were invited.
That's the trick.
You got to invite all the neighbors.
Yeah.
You got to, you got to call the local police department and say, hey guys, we're having
a barbecue in the bands plan and here's a trick that I pulled when I lived in Seattle.
I went up to the police station.
The police station was like two blocks from my house.
I walked up to the police station and I had a, and I had a, like, a flyer for it.
Yeah.
And I told them, I said, hey, I'm having a big blow out at my house.
Like it's going to be a revolving stage of bands.
Yeah.
You got to welcome.
You guys are welcome.
By the way, if you show up, you're singing.
Oh, there you go.
You got to force them into it.
Yeah.
And then I invited all of my neighbors.
I let them know.
And I did well in advance.
Oh, that's great.
Dude, it was nuts.
We started at like three.
And we had, this was at a time I was playing in like seven bands in Seattle.
And we had just non-stop music until like 10.
There was probably 200 people that showed up.
Awesome.
And the cops knew about it.
Now finally at like 10, 30 or 11, the cops came in and they go, all right, guys, come on.
Yeah, fun's over.
They can hear you all the way down in the harbor like enough.
You know, all right.
We'll shut it down.
Thanks.
Yeah.
Oh, man.
You got to invite everybody.
Yeah, amazing.
You got to invite all of your neighbors.
And here's another tip that I'll give you.
Sorry.
Sure.
No, no, you're fine.
But turn it, like, do a big party.
And invite everybody and say, hey, like just bring a dish.
Oh, right.
There you go.
Because they didn't even have a sleeping, yeah, you know, it's fantastic.
Yeah, white up with a bunch of food for weeks, too.
And find some kit, like find like a like a junior high school band or a high school band and
go like, guys, come on, I'll give you a 20 minute set.
They'll eat it up.
Oh, absolutely.
They would.
I got the twins.
I'm sure they have friends with fans right now that would love to get in here.
Well, I would love to do in this space.
I got my backyard is we've been talking about putting on live concerts in here and just
streaming it.
Yeah.
And then just have a, you know, have a, have 20, 30 people in here as an audience and then
pump it out on video would be very cool to do that.
I think it's all set up for it.
It's pretty well sound proof.
So I don't think I would be bugging the neighbors too much.
Yeah.
You're broadcasting from a punk club right now, man.
I know.
It feels really good.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's kind of my favorite place in the world right now.
You got road cases and electrical lines and cool lights.
Yeah.
15 inch speakers on stands behind you.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, it's a very fun room.
Yeah.
I love it.
I just got a fog machine the other day just to, you know, just to ramp it up even further.
Yeah.
Yeah, I made a very cool space for 16 year olds to hang out and good.
Yeah.
Then you'd that.
I just tell them don't touch any knobs or I'll kill you.
Well, all right.
Let me ask you a couple of favorite questions that I love asking the musicians.
Give me, give me best gig and worst gig.
Okay.
Best I would have to say, God, is any of the way I remember everything.
We did get to play a very big show when I was in my rap court band a long time ago.
That was cool.
Oh, man, it was funny.
I had the big ol' baggy pants.
I was playing guitar jumping around like the lit biscuit guy Westmoreland.
Yeah.
But we got to play, we opened up for a band called head PE and at the time, I mean, yeah,
they were those guys.
Yeah.
That was really fun because we got to, they were very, very nice guys that came back and
hung out with us for a little while.
And I mean, my, our minds were just blown, you know.
And then a worst one isn't my show, but it's a very good example of what can go beautifully
wrong.
And show, we run in there and there's this, there's this girl with a keyboard and she had
all the music on a, on an iPad.
Yeah.
And the room is just a big concrete box, you know.
So she's up there and this iPad started skipping as if it was a CD player or something, you
know.
And she's barely playing the keyboard and saying and she starts to freak out.
She says, okay, everybody, I got, I got all these songs on a laptop.
So hold on.
So everybody, we're just all standing there for about five minutes while she's hooking
up this laptop.
And the whole time she's got a beer sitting right next to it.
And everybody's watching her and she'll go right by the beer and it's like, you know, and
then everything's fine.
Then she starts playing.
Reach is over and knocks that beer on to the laptop and it just fracks.
But what I remember most about that is the room was very full and there were all these people
just wanted her to succeed.
So much hung in there and then just started playing the songs with just your voice and the
keyboard and everybody stayed and they clapped and they were all and it really, it made me
a lot less anxious about my own life shows.
I was like, Oh, these people got out of bed.
They came here and they want this to be good, you know, they came all the way down here.
So they'll put up with a lot of those were showing up somewhat prepared.
Wow.
Yeah.
So that would probably be the, I think about that all the time, that poor girl.
Yeah, I've seen that happen a couple of times too and your heart breaks and you know, you
just hope that the crowd is supportive and there for the right reasons.
Yup.
And that breaks they certainly were.
All right.
Best, best concert you've seen, which I think was probably smashing pumpkins.
And worst concert you've seen.
I would go not smashing pumpkins, although that did melt my brain for life.
I got to see bright eyes in Florida.
I flew down there because I was going to, I was going to miss that tour and they did the
coolest thing.
It was a, they all wore white.
Everything on stage was white.
I guess they did have some fake flowers and stuff but barely.
And then they had this visual artist with basically like a projector like you would have in
school where they would write on the transparencies.
They had a, they had a souped up one of those.
And this guy was like, he put a bowl of water on there and then drop food coloring into it
and it was just explode all over the stage, you know.
And then he'd have an etch of sketch and it was like he's going around the people.
It was so cool looking.
I've never seen anything like that was just the perfect, perfect combination of audio
and video.
Now, worst, I don't know, I always managed to have fun.
I'll tell you my first.
Yeah, give me my, my worst and it involves the smashing pumpkins, although I missed, I missed
their set.
Yes.
At Dodger Stadium in like 98.
Okay.
The smashing pumpkins opened, they had the original lineup back.
It was awful.
I don't know.
I mean, I'm glad like I got like free tickets.
Yeah, yeah.
I walked out.
It was awful.
And they were just performing poorly or was it a bad song?
Mix sucked.
The band like the, the stage antics, the, I mean, it was just, it was awful.
It was.
Was it a ball, Billy Corgan?
Kenny Arnoff was on drums.
Okay.
It was after they had had a death in the band and they were the opening act.
So I, I didn't see, so I'm not commenting about smashing pumpkins.
Oh, I'm sorry.
I must have been commenting about kiss.
Kiss with awful.
Okay.
Yeah, I've never seen awful awful awful awful.
Worse show up.
What's the crazy?
Because they've been around forever.
They should know better.
I, I have a lot of respect for them with respect to marketing and what they've done for branding.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
I'll, I'll give them that.
Do they deserve to be in the, do they deserve to be in the rock and roll hall of fame?
Yes.
Because of what they did for rock and roll is an art form.
And, you know, but I, I do, I like their music.
Do I find them compelling?
No.
Not the whole thing.
I believe it.
And yeah, it was stash.
It was awful.
I just met a, I met a kid online.
His name is Austin from, he's from Maine.
And he, I very rarely get messages from people.
And he just wrote me a note saying, hey, I found your album and, and think it's great.
And so I automatically just write him back and I, good for you.
Yeah, I want to, I want to, yeah, I just appreciate that so much.
And he said, I'm an abandoned too.
And so we get going back and forth.
And now we're writing stuff together too.
But we did a cover of Beth by Kis.
And it's, it's pretty good.
It's weird.
He, he plays a key tar in it and it gets crazy.
But he put that into some, it was some contest where you had to, you had to pick from a group
of songs.
And, yeah, we want a couple hundred bucks for that.
Nice.
He's small, yeah.
It's not great.
He changed the tempo.
Oh, what would you do?
It was completely, completely different.
There's no, the lyrics are the same, but that's about it.
It'd be funny to hear that as a polka, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, it was very fun to do.
Oh, wait, but I can't come home turn.
You know, that would be right.
Yeah, it's like that very much.
So, yeah, I almost forgot about Austin.
So I'm writing music with him too now.
And it's just so fun because he's got a different take.
He's, he's writing very Americana.
He's got a band called Tall Well.
And they're, they're just phenomenal.
If you're looking for lyrics and a good singer.
Yeah, they're in AIN.
Yep.
Cool.
I'm going to look them up.
Yeah.
All right.
Yeah, give me a musical guilty pleasure.
Somebody that somebody that, you know, would be a band or an artist who follows you.
Like so outside of your genre, they'd be like, man, I can't believe he likes this bicycle.
I have it.
My wife's going to kill me because I, I'll always ask Alexa when I'm walking out of the room
and if she's mad at me, I'll say, Alexa, play Limp Biscuit.
And she can't turn it off, fast enough.
Hold on.
I'm sorry, I actually have an Alexa in here.
Alexa, stop.
Stop.
Okay.
That's funny.
But yeah, I love it.
Even their new album, I, I will only listen to it on headphones where other people can't
hear what I'm doing.
But just, there's something about the production quality of that band in particular.
It sounds so good.
It's so hard.
I don't know.
Lyrically, there's nothing to grab.
Yeah.
All right.
My last question before we get to the song that's going to take us out is, like take a song
like "White Lies," which is a solo track.
Yeah.
Or, or, physics club from Monkey Robot War.
And who would you, like, all right, let's take, let's just take physics club because I would
love to hear how somebody, how somebody else would interpret it.
Sir.
Picking artists outside of Yershandra.
It can be anybody.
Money is no object.
Who do you want to cover that?
And I'll give you an example.
I'll give you an example.
There's another band in this space called "Iroh" out of North Carolina and you ought to
check them out.
They're heavy.
Great riffs.
Brandon is the guitar player in the main...
I just listened to him.
I know who you're talking about.
I love them.
Yeah.
Love.
And Brandon was like, man, I would love to hear Adele cover this song.
I'm like, man, now you're talking, baby.
Yeah, there you go.
So, money is no object.
God, I would...
You can have any producer in the world?
Who is going to produce, or excuse me, who is going to cover physics club by Monkey
Robot War?
Hmm.
You know, there's a lot of people that could do it better than we did.
But I'm thinking...
I'd like to hear like a funky or funky or version of it.
Like I can't remember that guy's name though.
He's going to drive me nuts.
What like Jumericwai?
Jumericwai would be...
He'd be good.
But I'm thinking of that guy.
He's a... I think he would play the Super Bowl, not this last one, but...
Bruno Mars.
Yes.
I think...
It would be fun to have somebody reinterpret it and really sing the crap out of it.
I was...
I was thinking to do Alipa.
Okay.
Yeah, I'm not too familiar.
I know the kids...
I love her stuff, man.
Great dance stuff.
And it'd be cool to hear like a dance club remix of that.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I love anything that makes you shake your butt.
You know, that leads right into...
It can be erased pretty well too.
Yeah, well, as they say, I played in a band in LA and the guitarist would always get up
on the mic and go, "3-year ass and your mind will follow."
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
All right.
Yeah, you get the...
Can we talk about the first part of that sentence?
Like what?
Yeah.
Oh, you mean...
Okay, got your arms.
Yeah, there you go.
Yeah, you get the drunk girls in the back.
Hootin' in a hollering at that one, I'm sure.
Yeah.
Well, all right.
So, tell us about the song that is going to take us out.
The song is called "It Can Be Erased."
Tell us about it.
This is one that has been...
I usually, I'll have like three or four versions.
I'll start off with the track or just kind of mumbling over the music and then the words
kind of form over time and it turns into a song.
But this one, I think what you have is the 26th version of it.
It's just been...
It's been in my head for way too long, ready to get it out there.
It's really like, lyrically, I think I was...
I'm just picturing myself back when I was single, heading downtown to go to some dance clubs
and stuff and just that whole feel of being out and about and then in the end getting rejected
by everyone.
You know, that's got to be in there.
Getting rejected and going home alone.
But you know, there'll be another night.
So no reason to get it too down.
It's a ride of the past.
Yep, absolutely.
Yeah.
So that's...
Go ahead, sorry.
Oh, it's okay.
So that can be erased.
I'm just really glad to get it out of my computer and out into the world and yeah, moving
on to the next ones, you know.
Yeah.
Well, Nate, thanks.
Man, thanks for coming on.
I adore your lyrics, the bands, your voice.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, man.
Yeah.
I mean, with all due respect to everybody else that I've reviewed and all the playlists and
everything like that, like you're probably my favorite artist in this space and I was
really, really excited to get you on the phone and talk to you about all this stuff.
So...
Thank you.
Well, just being on here is an honor.
I believe it or not, I do not get interviewed very often.
Really?
Damn.
This will be my second interview ever and possibly, whatever happened again.
So, yeah, I was a little nervous.
No, I don't agree with that.
I mean, keep doing what you're doing and, you know, hopefully it can turn into something
bigger and better.
But I also really respect the point you're making with respect to, hey, this is, you know,
like, I have a day job and I have a family and like, this is my outlet.
I mean, that's, you know, for people who aren't, for people who are listening who are not
artists, like, I mean, we could have spent an hour talking about how art can kill you.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Or...
Yeah.
No, I just, I enjoy it so much that I don't want to mess with it.
I feel like that would do that.
But, yeah, like I said, it's been great talking to you.
I've been thinking about it all week, so I'm glad it's like, it's almost like going on
or doing a show, you know, or a live performance.
So you've been great and I just appreciate talking to you.
Well, my pleasure.
Stick around.
We'll talk a little bit in the green room.
But taking us out here is it can be erased by Nate Johnathan from Grand Rapids, Michigan
And if you dig it, you've got to boost it. Come on guys.
Then, simulate some sats.
Alright.
Here you go. Thanks, thanks.
Make a round.
[Music]
I won't be the reason that you slow down.
I can't be there though, when you're spinning out.
Don't worry about anything.
Nothing is planned if it's written it can be erased.
I'll take care of all of it.
You'll be remembered as a saving grace.
I am if you are, I could be done.
[Music]
You ever feel the bass through the wall when you're downtown.
You can resist, stront it. It's a gravitational sound.
Don't worry about anything.
Nothing is planned if it's written it can be erased.
You will take care of all of it.
You'll be remembered as a saving grace.
[Music]
I am if you are, I could be done.
The lady shows her it's a long walk home.
Can't take her with you but you'll never be alone.
That is it can't be erased by Nate Johnovan from Grand Rapids, Michigan.
And I really appreciate him coming on the show.
That is a world debut basically.
That's the first time that song is out and I gotta tell you that's the first time I've heard it all the way through it.
That's a great example of why I love his music so much.
Like I did not expect a little bit of a disco vibe.
I did not expect a killer's influence on there.
I love what he did in the chorus, that minor riff there, that...
[Music]
Love the bass line in the second verse and then he played off of the fact of that bass line to implement the lyrics.
Drum beats killer.
Love that dude.
Send them some sats.
So that is episode 12 of the Phantom Power Artist Hour where we speak with artists who are exclusively in the value for value verse.
Artists who believe in the power of value for value in Bitcoin.
It's a new monetization model, it's a new revenue stream and if you are tired of making nothing on Spotify and iTunes and YouTube
and all of the "traditional streaming services" there is a better path and we would love to help you out.
So reach out to us on Telegram, Instagram, Twittergram, Snail Mailgram, the website gram, Graham crackers.
You can find us, look up Phantom Power Music on the internet, we'd be happy to help you out.
Thank you guys so much for listening.
Stick around tomorrow for the Phantom Power Business Hour, got a great conversation about value for value and film.
And I'm going to be talking with Zach Mahoney out of Los Angeles who is a filmmaker and founder of IndyHub.
It's a value for value type film studio.
It's going to be awesome.
Looking forward to that as well.
Everybody good?
Everybody healthy?
Are things starting to thaw out where you are? Good, glad to hear it.
We'll see you later, thanks for listening.
[Music]